Outstanding Article

apple0154 said:
We're not talking about a possibility. People did the math. The outcome was certain. The practices couldn't continue. It's not a case of "maybe" like in a ball game you use as an analogy.

There was a law in place before, the Glass-Steagall Law. Bush would know about that or have someone explain to him why it was necessary. How many average Joes would know about that law or why it was enacted?

The point is Bush did know. What he didn't do was push hard enough to prevent a crisis and that's poor leadership.
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So at what point should Bush have said we need to put Glass-Steagal back in place?
 
apple0154 said:
Yes, when a leader sees an impending crisis and Congress is not acting then the leader has the responsibility to tell the people anything that might help.

That's what being a leader is all about. Leading.
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No disrespect but this is arm chair QB'ing at its finest. There were people who said we were in a housing bubble but very few who were predicting the markets would collapse like they did.
 
apple0154 said:
Yes, when a leader sees an impending crisis and Congress is not acting then the leader has the responsibility to tell the people anything that might help.

That's what being a leader is all about. Leading.
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And when I asked you why didn't Bill Clinton tell the country to quit buying tech stocks during the bubble and you said because the subsequent fall out wasn't as bad as when the real estate bubble bursted is another prime example of 20/20 hindsight/arm chair QB'ing.
 
cawacko said:
So that's the basis of your argument, "he didn't care?" A President who obviously has a huge ego doesn't care if the economy falls apart on his watch and hurts his legacy? That makes a lot of sense.
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Then why didn't he do something? It wasn't a secret. People didn't start defaulting all at once. It was happening over time and now that we see the practices involved anyone who had access to that knowledge would know things would collapse.

One doesn't require extraordinary knowledge to know that refinancing someone's home past their ability to repay is going to result in consequences, practices that were being commonly used.

Bush and/or his advisers had access to that knowledge. Maybe he hoped he'd get out before things fell apart but he had to know things would fall apart. Anyone would know things would fall apart if they had access to that knowledge.

That's poor leadership regardless of how one looks at it.
 
apple0154 said:
Then why didn't he do something? It wasn't a secret. People didn't start defaulting all at once. It was happening over time and now that we see the practices involved anyone who had access to that knowledge would know things would collapse.

One doesn't require extraordinary knowledge to know that refinancing someone's home past their ability to repay is going to result in consequences, practices that were being commonly used.

Bush and/or his advisers had access to that knowledge. Maybe he hoped he'd get out before things fell apart but he had to know things would fall apart. Anyone would know things would fall apart if they had access to that knowledge.

That's poor leadership regardless of how one looks at it.
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As has been stated reforms attempts at Freddie and Fannie were rejected earlier in the decade in Congress. I'm sure you're familiar with how about how our institutions work but the President can't sign something that Congress doesn't pass.
 
Apple you are entitled to your opinion sir. To me it just looks like a very transparent attmept at wanting to use hindsight to blame/bash Bush.
 
tom prendergast said:
There were several senators and economists who predicted the repercussions of repealing Glass-Steagall, not least among them being Byron Dorgan, it is just tragic that nobody listened to these siren voices in the wilderness at the time. I am reminded of the Gordon Gecko character in Wall Street and the infamous saying "greed is good". There is a new film called unsurprisingly Wall Street 2 coming out next year, where Michael Douglas reprises his role as Gecko.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/11/glass-steagall-act-the-se_n_201557.html

YouTube- Rachel Maddow Show - Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND) - prophetic on the economy
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Even worse is people still saying government shouldn't be involved. The government was involved for over 60 years and things were fine. Once the government stopped being involved things went to hell.

What is it that some folks don't comprehend?
 
apple0154 said:
We're not talking about a possibility. People did the math. The outcome was certain. The practices couldn't continue. It's not a case of "maybe" like in a ball game you use as an analogy.

There was a law in place before, the Glass-Steagall Law. Bush would know about that or have someone explain to him why it was necessary. How many average Joes would know about that law or why it was enacted?

The point is Bush did know. What he didn't do was push hard enough to prevent a crisis and that's poor leadership.
Click to expand...


Bullshit.
It's like the old way of testing to see if the noodles are done.
Throw them against the wall and see what sticks.

How many things were PREDICTED that DIDN'T come to pass.

This armchair quarterbacking is just a bunch of BS.
Would you like to play the same game with Obama??
 
apple0154 said:
Yes, when a leader sees an impending crisis and Congress is not acting then the leader has the responsibility to tell the people anything that might help.

That's what being a leader is all about. Leading.
Click to expand...


I guess you're used to being told what you should do.
 
cawacko said:
No disrespect but this is arm chair QB'ing at its finest. There were people who said we were in a housing bubble but very few who were predicting the markets would collapse like they did.
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Same question as asked of apple.
How many predictions DIDN'T come to pass?
 
cawacko said:
No disrespect but this is arm chair QB'ing at its finest. There were people who said we were in a housing bubble but very few who were predicting the markets would collapse like they did.
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It not armchair QB'ing. The Glass-Steagall Act was put in place to avoid this very thing (financial crisis). When Bush saw things were going in the wrong direction that was the time to push for change.

There were people/advisers in position to know why there ever was a Glass-Steagall Act. It's not like this never happened before. Nothing is new.

Certain financial institutions were kept separate for reason.
 
apple0154 said:
It not armchair QB'ing. The Glass-Steagall Act was put in place to avoid this very thing (financial crisis). When Bush saw things were going in the wrong direction that was the time to push for change.

There were people/advisers in position to know why there ever was a Glass-Steagall Act. It's not like this never happened before. Nothing is new.

Certain financial institutions were kept separate for reason.
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The law was passed in '99. There's no way it was going to be revoked in '06 or '07. Just wasn't going to happen man. It's why I ask you why haven't Obama and the Democrats put it back in place since they've been in charge?
 
cawacko said:
And when I asked you why didn't Bill Clinton tell the country to quit buying tech stocks during the bubble and you said because the subsequent fall out wasn't as bad as when the real estate bubble bursted is another prime example of 20/20 hindsight/arm chair QB'ing.
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The Real Estate bubble and the Tech bubble are different because the Real Estate bubble was driven by shady bank/investment practices.

If banks were loaning people money to buy Tech stock and bundling those loans as investments then we could make a comparison. If failure of brokerage firms were similar to bank failures we could make a comparison. If people had put money in brokerage firms for safekeeping like they do with banks then a comparison could be made.

Banks misled people by encouraging them to re-mortgage past their ability to pay. The bank didn't care if the owner of the house could pay the mortgage or not because the bank figured it could sell the property at a profit, regardless.

In the past the bank, through wanting to protect it's own money, ensured the home owner could pay before loaning money. One could count on their bank giving solid financial advice for the past 60+ years. That relationship or mutually beneficial arrangement which naturally governed ones interaction with a bank changed without the general knowledge/awareness of the average person.
 
cawacko said:
As has been stated reforms attempts at Freddie and Fannie were rejected earlier in the decade in Congress. I'm sure you're familiar with how about how our institutions work but the President can't sign something that Congress doesn't pass.
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I know. It's about Bush not pushing hard enough. Maybe he couldn't have changed anything but he could have tried harder.
 
apple0154 said:
The Real Estate bubble and the Tech bubble are different because the Real Estate bubble was driven by shady bank/investment practices.

If banks were loaning people money to buy Tech stock and bundling those loans as investments then we could make a comparison. If failure of brokerage firms were similar to bank failures we could make a comparison. If people had put money in brokerage firms for safekeeping like they do with banks then a comparison could be made.

Banks misled people by encouraging them to re-mortgage past their ability to pay. The bank didn't care if the owner of the house could pay the mortgage or not because the bank figured it could sell the property at a profit, regardless.

In the past the bank, through wanting to protect it's own money, ensured the home owner could pay before loaning money. One could count on their bank giving solid financial advice for the past 60+ years. That relationship or mutually beneficial arrangement which naturally governed ones interaction with a bank changed without the general knowledge/awareness of the average person.
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I already gave you an example of Congress rejecting proposed reforms to Freddie and Frannie which attempted to address those issue you brought up.

And the banks didn't think they could sell the houses at a profit. They didn't care because the loans were securitized and packaged and sold and most went off their books. They just wanted the fees.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Bullshit.
It's like the old way of testing to see if the noodles are done.
Throw them against the wall and see what sticks.

How many things were PREDICTED that DIDN'T come to pass.

This armchair quarterbacking is just a bunch of BS.
Would you like to play the same game with Obama??
Click to expand...

Why was there a Glass Steagall law in the first place? When Bush was informed things might be getting worse, things may fall apart, there is chance things will go to Hell didn't someone ring the Glass Steagall bell?

This was not something new or unexpected. It had happened before and there were laws in place preventing in from happening again. When it looked as if it might happen again it was time to push for another Glass Steagall type law.

The situation could have been a lot worse. It could have been like the depression. A President should have known that and if he did he should have warned the people, over and over, if necessary.

Look at all the urgent meetings he had with the banks and other companies and people in power when he knew something had to be done. Why didn't he have meetings before it got to that point? Why didn't he know there was a Glass Steagall law before and the reason for it?

Is that expecting too much from a leader?
 
cawacko said:
The law was passed in '99. There's no way it was going to be revoked in '06 or '07. Just wasn't going to happen man. It's why I ask you why haven't Obama and the Democrats put it back in place since they've been in charge?
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I would suspect Obama has plenty on his plate now.

The first thing is the health care bill. Then the wars. Now the economy. He can't spread himself too thin.

Once the health care bill passes I"m sure he'll start reforming other things.
 
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