Our Gun Rights

I have already said many times that I can understand guns for self defence and hunting, it is the whole bat shit crazy mumbo jumbo about divine rights and the second amendment which I find mindboggling.

Yeah? Well you want to know what I find mind-boggling? The fledgling youngest nation on Earth formed a government devoted to preserving rights given to men by their Creator, and from there-- Fought and defeated the world's largest standing Army (and Navy)... went on to invent electrification, mass production of automobiles, space travel, cures for countless diseases, endless products and machines to make our lives easier. In the process, they also fought a crippling Civil War which killed hundreds of thousands, and later fought and won two world wars, culminating with a weapon they created that is the most powerful ever known to mankind. All along the way, they were told ideas were impossible. You'll never build a 300+ mile canal! They did. You'll never build a transcontinental railway! They did. You'll never put man on the moon! They did. You'll never explore Mars! They did. They are still doing!

And you know what? It may not be a "perfect" governmental system, and we may have gone astray from what the founders intended in recent years, but by god it's better than anything Europeans have ever attempted, and the overwhelming successes speak for themselves on that.... my job of pointing them out, was easy!
 
Yeah? Well you want to know what I find mind-boggling? The fledgling youngest nation on Earth formed a government devoted to preserving rights given to men by their Creator, and from there-- Fought and defeated the world's largest standing Army (and Navy)... went on to invent electrification, mass production of automobiles, space travel, cures for countless diseases, endless products and machines to make our lives easier. In the process, they also fought a crippling Civil War which killed hundreds of thousands, and later fought and won two world wars, culminating with a weapon they created that is the most powerful ever known to mankind. All along the way, they were told ideas were impossible. You'll never build a 300+ mile canal! They did. You'll never build a transcontinental railway! They did. You'll never put man on the moon! They did. You'll never explore Mars! They did. They are still doing!

And you know what? It may not be a "perfect" governmental system, and we may have gone astray from what the founders intended in recent years, but by god it's better than anything Europeans have ever attempted, and the overwhelming successes speak for themselves on that.... my job of pointing them out, was easy!

Where does it say in the Ten Commandments "Thou shall have the right to bear arms"


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Dixie if my ask. If you really want to go by the 2nd Amendment as it was constructed then should I have the right to bare nuclear arms? As long we are talking about it? How is carrying a AK-47 in public self-defense? Would you be really saying that if this was an African American or Middle East person that shot those people in CO? I mean really? Give it a rest.
 
Where does it say in the Ten Commandments "Thou shall have the right to bear arms"

What? Are we governing by the Ten Commandments now? What does that have to do with the Constitution? The Ten Commandments weren't part of or founding documents, they were written much longer ago and were intended to lead a people out of slavery and bondage to something better. If there is any connection to our nation, is that American Exceptionalism is a realization and manifestation of that dream for the persecuted. It's funny how you will complain that righties want to turn America into a theocracy, but here YOU are, throwing up the Ten Commandments, and trying to use it to make some point opposing the Constitution. That is absolutely brilliant!
 
Dixie if my ask. If you really want to go by the 2nd Amendment as it was constructed then should I have the right to bare nuclear arms? As long we are talking about it? How is carrying a AK-47 in public self-defense? Would you be really saying that if this was an African American or Middle East person that shot those people in CO? I mean really? Give it a rest.

If nukes are available to the bad guys, you should be able to have them, if you can find them and afford them. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say you have the right to bear arms, but only less effective ones. There is no caveat, you have the right to own whatever weapon you please. Furthermore, the FEDERAL government has NO right to even know about it, much less track/register it. There is no constitutional provision for this under the 2nd Amendment. It is through the gross misinterpretation of "regulated" that we find ourselves capitulating to background checks, screening, and outright bans on guns. As it is used in parlance, the term "regulated" meant "outfitted, equipped, prepared."

How is carrying a AK-47 in public self-defense?

Are you gonna fuck with someone carrying an AK-47?

Would you be really saying that if this was an African American or Middle East person that shot those people in CO? I mean really?

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH AURORA AND THE TRAGIC SHOOTING!

It doesn't matter what fucking COLOR the person who did it was... or what COLOR hair they had, for that matter! It was a senseless act, done by a deranged person. I mourn the loss of life in this tragedy, and for the families, I hope this scumbag never sees the light of day again, if it were up to me, they'd put him in an empty theater and the families would go into the balcony with guns and use him for target practice. That would be MY justice in this case. Don't get me started on that, when this thread is not about that. I don't have knee-jerk emotive reactions and want to FIX everything and make it all better, because I can't cope with tragedy. This just another EXCUSE for you people to whine and moan about guns, and try to further infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights.

How about start raising your fucked up punk emo kids to respect life?
 
I always find it amusing when the people who talk about the Founding Fathers and their mentioning inalienable rights, almost to the point of worship, are the same folks who disparage government. The Founding Father, for all intents and purposes, were government. It was a bunch of government employees/workers/operatives who crafted the Constitution. It was government who gave you the very things you profess to be the pinnacle of mankind's evolution. The exceptionalism which some tout every day was conceived and imlemented by government. Now, as society progresses, the very people who stand in admiration of those who fought against an established government (the Crown) to form a better way of life stand in the way of the evolution of government.

how do you say such bullshit lies with a straight face?
 
I always find it amusing when the people who talk about the Founding Fathers and their mentioning inalienable rights, almost to the point of worship, are the same folks who disparage government. The Founding Father, for all intents and purposes, were government. It was a bunch of government employees/workers/operatives who crafted the Constitution. It was government who gave you the very things you profess to be the pinnacle of mankind's evolution. The exceptionalism which some tout every day was conceived and imlemented by government. Now, as society progresses, the very people who stand in admiration of those who fought against an established government (the Crown) to form a better way of life stand in the way of the evolution of government.

Ummm the Founders were not fans of big government. They had just fought one. It's foolish to think that after several years of war, they would turn around and make their own tyrannical government. The arguments against big intrusive government, do not apply to ALL government.
 
Ummm the Founders were not fans of big government. They had just fought one. It's foolish to think that after several years of war, they would turn around and make their own tyrannical government. The arguments against big intrusive government, do not apply to ALL government.
I keep saying this, but they ignore it. it's not convenient for their positions.
 
Dixie if my ask. If you really want to go by the 2nd Amendment as it was constructed then should I have the right to bare nuclear arms? As long we are talking about it? How is carrying a AK-47 in public self-defense? Would you be really saying that if this was an African American or Middle East person that shot those people in CO? I mean really? Give it a rest.

What's wrong with an AK? Is it somehow more evil or vicious then other guns? As for nukes, where would you purchase one legally? I can purchase RPGs legally and yet I cannot find one for sale.
 
First off, the men that wrote and debated the constitution were NOT government employees. They were members to the convention selected by the citizens of their states to go and craft a document that was better than the Articles of Confederation. They were not paid to be there. They basically volunteered their time to put the document together. Secondly, they did not "create" the rights in the Bill of Rights. Instead, they said that those rights existed before the foundation of governments. The rights specifically listed in the BoR were rights that the Crown had been basically denying and the Founders wanted to be sure that those were protected. To make sure that people did not say that those were the ONLY rights protected they included the ninth amendment (the one that conservatives like to ignore ) and to ensure that the states could go further they included the 10th (the one that liberals like to ignore). The second amendment is not SOLELY about self defense. It was also created to insure that the populous was armed in case the need for revolution ever arose again.

As for our reverence for the founders...damn skippy. They were the demi-gods of this republic. They had the wisdom and foresight to see that from time to time the government, and even the majority might try to trample the rights of others. It is why I always question people who talk about the how the majority does not support gay marriage, or as was said decades ago, the majority did not support desegregation. Madison warned of the tyranny of the majority and whether they come from the left or the right, he was correct. An AK-47 or an AR-15 or any other myriad of guns can be used to fight an oppressive government. I know I know, the government has tanks, but men have to get out of tanks and when they do those weapons and others are good against them. As the saying goes, you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
 
First off, the men that wrote and debated the constitution were NOT government employees. They were members to the convention selected by the citizens of their states to go and craft a document that was better than the Articles of Confederation. They were not paid to be there. They basically volunteered their time to put the document together. Secondly, they did not "create" the rights in the Bill of Rights. Instead, they said that those rights existed before the foundation of governments. The rights specifically listed in the BoR were rights that the Crown had been basically denying and the Founders wanted to be sure that those were protected. To make sure that people did not say that those were the ONLY rights protected they included the ninth amendment (the one that conservatives like to ignore ) and to ensure that the states could go further they included the 10th (the one that liberals like to ignore). The second amendment is not SOLELY about self defense. It was also created to insure that the populous was armed in case the need for revolution ever arose again.

As for our reverence for the founders...damn skippy. They were the demi-gods of this republic. They had the wisdom and foresight to see that from time to time the government, and even the majority might try to trample the rights of others. It is why I always question people who talk about the how the majority does not support gay marriage, or as was said decades ago, the majority did not support desegregation. Madison warned of the tyranny of the majority and whether they come from the left or the right, he was correct. An AK-47 or an AR-15 or any other myriad of guns can be used to fight an oppressive government. I know I know, the government has tanks, but men have to get out of tanks and when they do those weapons and others are good against them. As the saying goes, you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

copied from wiki:

Scholarly interpretation

Professor Laurence Tribe shares the view that this amendment does not confer substantive rights: "It is a common error, but an error nonetheless, to talk of 'ninth amendment rights.' The ninth amendment is not a source of rights as such; it is simply a rule about how to read the Constitution."[8]
In 2000, Harvard historian Bernard Bailyn gave a speech at the White House on the subject of the Ninth Amendment. He said that the Ninth Amendment refers to "a universe of rights, possessed by the people — latent rights, still to be evoked and enacted into law....a reservoir of other, unenumerated rights that the people retain, which in time may be enacted into law."[9] Similarly, journalist Brian Doherty has argued that the Ninth Amendment "specifically roots the Constitution in a natural rights tradition that says we are born with more rights than any constitution could ever list or specify."[10]
Robert Bork, often considered an originalist, stated during his Supreme Court confirmation hearing that a judge should not apply a constitutional provision like this one if he does not know what it means; the example Bork then gave was a clause covered by an inkblot. Upon further study, Bork later ascribed a meaning to the Ninth Amendment in his book The Tempting of America. In that book, Bork subscribed to the interpretation of constitutional historian Russell Caplan, who asserted that this Amendment was meant to ensure that the federal Bill of Rights would not affect provisions in state law that restrain state governments.[11]
A libertarian originalist, Randy Barnett, has argued that the Ninth Amendment requires what he calls a presumption of liberty. Still others, such as Thomas B. McAffee, have argued that the Ninth Amendment protects the unenumerated "residuum" of rights which the federal government was never empowered to violate.[12]
According to lawyer and diplomat Frederic Jesup Stimson, the framers of the Constitution and the Ninth Amendment intended that no rights that they already held would be lost through omission. Law professor Charles Lund Black took a similar position, though Stimson and Black respectively acknowledged that their views differed from the modern view, and differed from the prevalent view in academic writing.[13][14]
Gun rights activists in recent decades have sometimes argued for a fundamental natural right to keep and bear arms that both predates the U.S. Constitution and is covered by the Constitution's Ninth Amendment; according to this viewpoint, the Second Amendment only enumerates a pre-existing right to keep and bear arms.[15]
 
No, these were 'endowed by our Creator.' Read the Declaration of Independence.

Exactly what do you mean? Are you implying the Founding Fathers were prophets? How did they know what rights the Creator decided people should have? In fact, it reads, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights....."

"WE".....the governing body, those representing the people, decided.

Our government was formed to ENSURE these rights.

The government decided on those rights unless there was a Mount Sinai/10 Commandments type of event of which I'm not aware. Again, unless there's more to the story the government decided on what rights people would have and, naturally, proceeded to ensure them.
 
Exactly what do you mean? Are you implying the Founding Fathers were prophets? How did they know what rights the Creator decided people should have? In fact, it reads, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights....."

"WE".....the governing body, those representing the people, decided.

Uhm... no... in the first line, "We" has been defined. It is "We The People" ....They even wrote it super big for idiots like yourself, so you wouldn't be confused!

The "government" had not been formed, that's what they were in the process of doing when establishing a Constitution.

The government decided on those rights unless there was a Mount Sinai/10 Commandments type of event of which I'm not aware. Again, unless there's more to the story the government decided on what rights people would have and, naturally, proceeded to ensure them.

No one "decided" our rights except for our Creator who endowed them to us as human beings. That seems to be the fundamental point you are missing here.
 
Ummm the Founders were not fans of big government. They had just fought one. It's foolish to think that after several years of war, they would turn around and make their own tyrannical government. The arguments against big intrusive government, do not apply to ALL government.

The key word is "tyrannical". They were, like everyone else, against a government that took money and gave nothing back in return.

Look at all the countries that have government medical. The citizens in every such country, without exception, insist the government be involved. Why? Because they see they get health care for a price they can afford, tax-wise.

If there was a product/service the government could provide that costs every citizen less wouldn't every citizen want it? There are things big government can provide that costs everyone less and health care is one of those things. The objection to big government is when the government doesn't supply products/services for the citizens. The problem is inefficient government, not big government.
 
Second Amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Every so often, a tragedy happens of some kind, involving a gun. When it does, we see the usual parade of anti-gun activists emerge yet again, calling for more restrictive gun laws, or outright bans on certain guns. It's as predictable as the sunrise. I can't help but think each time this happens, there are a certain number of people who were supportive of the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, who change their minds to some degree. We see this manifest today, when a supposed 'gun-rights' person says they can "see the point in getting rid of automatic assault rifles, etc." To me, this illustrates why radical lefties should never be "agreed" with. It leads to further Leftism. Anti-gun people are not going to be satisfied until every American is disarmed. We need to always remember that, when they are making their emotive pleas to "stop the madness" or whatever. It's all about incrementally divorcing us from our 2nd Amendment rights.

Our founding fathers made this our second most fundamental right as free people. This right, as our others, is inalienable... means you can't take it away because it is endowed as a birthright. It is NO ONES to take. Still, that doesn't dissuade those who want to take this right away. At some point, people who thought they knew and understood the 2nd Amendment, said... meh... okay, maybe we can have some "regulation" of guns and ownership, because they DID use the word "regulated" in there... and that means we can "regulate" guns and gun ownership, but that is not what is meant at all. "A well regulated militia" essentially means "A well-outfitted militia." A militia in which regular maintaining of effectiveness and efficiency is kept diligently. We must remember, in 1776, the states had enemies all around them, the Spanish and Indians in Florida, the French lurking around in the Louisiana territory, the Indians over the Appalachian Mountains... America was not a secure and safe place. We also couldn't respond with military jets out of Washington in a matter of minutes or hours, it took months to move armies into place or send help to people under siege, so it was vital that states maintained a well-regulated armed force, to defend themselves.

Even more than this, there was a deeper sentiment involved. Remember, in 1776 we were severing ties with a King who repressed our rights and rendered us helpless against his armies. Our people had come from tyrannic rule to a country where they could realize freedom and independence. In establishing the new government, the founders were compelled to add some component by which the people would ALWAYS have the ability to rise up and take control of the government, if the government ever became tyrannical. They wanted to ensure this never happened again, so they incorporated the individual right to bear arms, in order that we might defend our other inalienable rights from tyranny. So we have a double purpose for the second amendment, and it was established as the most important right behind freedom to speak, worship, and assemble.

Enter the 20th Century Moderates, and their willingness to entertain the Leftist notions. Nowhere in the 2nd Amendment, do we find the governments right to decide what weapons are appropriate, and which can not be allowed. It says our right to bear arms can not be infringed. A "properly regulated militia" should be able to have whatever current weaponry is available, without governmental restriction. In fact, not only that, but it's frankly not any of the government's business, they have no right to KNOW what weaponry we have. Again, something that simply isn't in the 2nd Amendment, the right for government to keep track of who has what weapons. In matters of military strategy, this knowledge is paramount to victory and success, so why would we assume the people are to sacrifice this information to the government? The 2nd doesn't say you have the right to bear arms so long as everyone knows what arms you bear. It says nothing about government registration of firearms, yet we somehow managed to let anti-gun people talk us into that. Were they satisfied? OF COURSE NOT! They want to eliminate all guns for everyone! Incrementalism!

Moderates will holler... "You don't need an AK-47 to hunt deer!" ...But the 2nd Amendment was not created so hunters could hunt. Both hunting and target range shooting, are nice benefits to having the 2nd Amendment, they are not the reason for it. Of course, in 1776, a lot of people DID hunt, they supported themselves by hunting. The gun was seen as a most essential tool in pioneer days, and one would think it's almost something the founding fathers might have simply overlooked, when establishing our inalienable rights. We don't have the specified right to keep and bear hammers, axes and saws. But our 2nd most important right, is to keep and bear arms. That is because the purpose for this right was far more reaching than simply sportsmanship or recreational use. Moderates entertaining the Leftist notions, has somehow shifted the argument to a place it was never intended to be.

Our right to bear arms is inalienable. It is not even permitted by the 2nd amendment for government to know what kind or how many we have.

It's blatantly UNCONSTITUTIONAL!



Well lookie here...another long winded diatribe from Dixie explaining why he knows better than anyone else what's best for this country...
 
Uhm... no... in the first line, "We" has been defined. It is "We The People" ....They even wrote it super big for idiots like yourself, so you wouldn't be confused!

The "government" had not been formed, that's what they were in the process of doing when establishing a Constitution.

So we're still back to people deciding on what the Creator wanted.

No one "decided" our rights except for our Creator who endowed them to us as human beings. That seems to be the fundamental point you are missing here.

Yes, that point is missing as there is no evidence any Creator stated anything like the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Was it received like the 10 Commandments? Was there a proverbial Mount Sinai?

As you stated, "We, the people" not "the Creator said". People, human beings, decided on what rights to uphold.

Talk about idiocy. How more plain can I put it? Unless the Founding Fathers had a conversation with the "Creator" there were no "Creator rights". In fact, the Founding Fathers made it quite clear with the "We hold these rights to be self-evident" statement. Do you know what those words mean? If the rights were dictated/designed by a "Creator" there would be no need to write, "We hold these rights to be self-evident."

On that note it's siesta time. :)
 
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