Our Gun Rights

[Canceled.2014.1]

I'm telling you, it doesn't matter... these people want to take every gun out every hand in America, and they will not be satisfied until that is accomplished. This silly charade about ammo and number of guns is nothing more than a fishing expedition, to see who they can dupe into going along with their incrementalism.

Dixie, chill out. I am trying to engage them in a rational discussion and perhaps educate them a bit.

 

[apple0154]

Yet they took it among themselves to establish a big government in order to lessen the power of the States. Go figure...

Thirty-Five of them were lawyers. And the majority were slave-holders.

No, they weren't. They were unprepared to foresee what the nation would be like today, had no benefit of the past to rely on, and failed miserably with their first attempt at setting up a government, the Articles of Confederation. Mainly because the majority of the lawmaking authority laid with the states.

And you guys want to go back to that????

If I recall a number of years passed before someone noticed the Federal Government didn't have a system in place by which to raise money (taxes).

 

[apple0154]

they were NOT the government, they were not assigned to the government. There was no way that they could have been the government because the federal government did not exist at that time.

I call it the constitutional convention. they were not the government because the government didn't exist.

Fine, they weren't the government. They were the folks who wrote rules and after the government formed it took those rules and made them law and some went on to be the government.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

In case anyone missed the link Soc posted, here it is, along with an excerpt:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually."

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So we're still back to people deciding on what the Creator wanted.

It has nothing to do with what anyone "decided." It was people who believed our inherent rights are not granted by man.

Yes, that point is missing as there is no evidence any Creator stated anything like the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Was it received like the 10 Commandments? Was there a proverbial Mount Sinai?

They didn't establish a Christian theocracy. The 10 Commandments were not written as the basis for establishing a government, they were written long before the founding fathers as a means to lead a people out of bondage to a better life. If there is any intrinsic connection to the Constitution, it is that American Exceptionalism is the manifest realization of the same dream, for people to be removed from the bondage of tyranny to govern themselves and live a better life.

It has nothing to do with a religious belief of what a "creator" may or may not have "said" to followers, it's about mankind's universal rights we are born with as humans, given to us by whatever 'God' we believe Created us. We don't have to agree on the Creator, or accept the same incarnation, this has nothing to do with that, because it is clearly stipulated in the First Amendment this is not the case.

As you stated, "We, the people" not "the Creator said". People, human beings, decided on what rights to uphold.

Again, The People didn't "decide" on the rights. They are there, regardless of people's decisions. That was the whole point... The King of England "decided" our rights for us, and we didn't like it. We established a nation, a constitution and a government on the basis of endowed rights, not "granted" by man.

Talk about idiocy. How more plain can I put it? Unless the Founding Fathers had a conversation with the "Creator" there were no "Creator rights". In fact, the Founding Fathers made it quite clear with the "We hold these rights to be self-evident" statement. Do you know what those words mean? If the rights were dictated/designed by a "Creator" there would be no need to write, "We hold these rights to be self-evident."

Self-evident means, it should be evident to anyone who isn't a simple-minded idiot. And they didn't hold that the "rights" were self-evident, they held the "truth" was self-evident. The truth being, that all men are born with natural rights endowed by the Creator. So they say... The TRUTH... is apparent, even a stupid idiot like Apple can see this... our rights don't come from a King or a Court, they come from our Creator and endowed to us at birth as humans.

 

[CanceledB]

Self-evident means, it should be evident to anyone who isn't a simple-minded idiot. And they didn't hold that the "rights" were self-evident, they held the "truth" was self-evident. The truth being, that all men are born with natural rights endowed by the Creator. So they say... The TRUTH... is apparent, even a stupid idiot like Apple can see this... our rights don't come from a King or a Court, they come from our Creator and endowed to us at birth as humans.

Except that the TRUTH about those rights for blacks didn't exist until dipshit mortal MEN decided that they did. How do you explain that, rube? The creator was wrong? Who was wrong, rube?

 

[apple0154]

In other words, you enjoy killing animals and need lots of different kinds of guns because certain guns are better for killing certain animals. Terrific. You justified your 'need' for many guns.

I don't eat animals, I don't hunt, I think the sport is disgusting, so there's no point in continuing the discussion. You justified your need for all your guns. I won't argue that point with you.

When growing up my brother and neighbor encouraged me to go practice shooting/hunting, shooting squirrels and birds. I went once. I shot a bird and it fell to the ground. The only thing it did for me was make me feel ill.

 

[CanceledB]

When growing up my brother and neighbor encouraged me to go practice shooting/hunting, shooting squirrels and birds. I went once. I shot a bird and it fell to the ground. The only thing it did for me was make me feel ill.

There's nothing 'sporting' about it. It's disgusting. It should make you feel ill, so good for you.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Except that the TRUTH about those rights for blacks didn't exist until dipshit mortal MEN decided that they did. How do you explain that...

Because in 1776, black humans were not considered to be human beings. In fact, through much of the 1800s, this myth was bolstered by the work of one, Charles Darwin, and his theories on human evolution. You live in some fucked up fantasy land where blacks were always considered people, just some people were prejudiced toward them, but that wasn't the case. In 1776, blacks weren't considered part of the human race, they were likened to cattle...they had no rights.

Frederick Douglass, one of the pioneers of civil right, was at first, a very harsh critic of the Constitution and Federal government. But after studying the Constitution, later admitted it was a brilliantly written document supporting freedom for ALL people. It was precisely BECAUSE of the Constitution, and our founding belief that ALL MEN are created equal and endowed with rights, that we were eventually able to rectify the horrors of slavery and blacks became free.

 

[CanceledB]

Because in 1776, black humans were not considered to be human beings.

Well they WERE human beings, though. So whatever the mortal dipshits thought they were hearing from 'the creator' about who was and wasn't human, they heard wrong. Or maybe 'the creator' was wrong? Or perhaps, obviously, 'the creator' had fuck-all to do with it? Which is it, rube?

The rest of your bullshit only bolsters my point, which is that 'the creator' didn't have anything to do with anything. The guys writing the shit down decided amongst themselves that their mortal ideas would carry more weight if they attached the cred of 'the creator' to it. And looky, the idiots bought it and are still buying it.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

There's nothing 'sporting' about it. It's disgusting. It should make you feel ill, so good for you.

You are welcome to your opinion. But I would also suggest that you be grateful for those of us that do hunt, since the extra fees and taxes we pay fund much of the state conservation efforts.

And quite a few game species, such as whitetail deer, have no natural predators left. If you think seeing one shot makes you feel ill, be glad there are not millions of them starving and destroying the habitat for untold numbers of other animals.

You're welcome.

 

[cancel2 2022]

It has nothing to do with what anyone "decided." It was people who believed our inherent rights are not granted by man.



They didn't establish a Christian theocracy. The 10 Commandments were not written as the basis for establishing a government, they were written long before the founding fathers as a means to lead a people out of bondage to a better life. If there is any intrinsic connection to the Constitution, it is that American Exceptionalism is the manifest realization of the same dream, for people to be removed from the bondage of tyranny to govern themselves and live a better life.

It has nothing to do with a religious belief of what a "creator" may or may not have "said" to followers, it's about mankind's universal rights we are born with as humans, given to us by whatever 'God' we believe Created us. We don't have to agree on the Creator, or accept the same incarnation, this has nothing to do with that, because it is clearly stipulated in the First Amendment this is not the case.



Again, The People didn't "decide" on the rights. They are there, regardless of people's decisions. That was the whole point... The King of England "decided" our rights for us, and we didn't like it. We established a nation, a constitution and a government on the basis of endowed rights, not "granted" by man.



Self-evident means, it should be evident to anyone who isn't a simple-minded idiot. And they didn't hold that the "rights" were self-evident, they held the "truth" was self-evident. The truth being, that all men are born with natural rights endowed by the Creator. So they say... The TRUTH... is apparent, even a stupid idiot like Apple can see this... our rights don't come from a King or a Court, they come from our Creator and endowed to us at birth as humans.

Can I tell you something? The only way that you guys won the War of Independence was because Brits were distracted fighting the Frogs, Dutch and Spanish. If you really think that the Brits were such terrible oppressors then why are Canada, India, Australia, South Africa, Ireland and many former colonies in Africa democracies? Contrast that with the way the French, Dutch, Germans, Spanish and Portuguese presided over their colonies.

 

[apple0154]

It has nothing to do with what anyone "decided." It was people who believed our inherent rights are not granted by man.

They didn't establish a Christian theocracy. The 10 Commandments were not written as the basis for establishing a government, they were written long before the founding fathers as a means to lead a people out of bondage to a better life. If there is any intrinsic connection to the Constitution, it is that American Exceptionalism is the manifest realization of the same dream, for people to be removed from the bondage of tyranny to govern themselves and live a better life.

It has nothing to do with a religious belief of what a "creator" may or may not have "said" to followers, it's about mankind's universal rights we are born with as humans, given to us by whatever 'God' we believe Created us. We don't have to agree on the Creator, or accept the same incarnation, this has nothing to do with that, because it is clearly stipulated in the First Amendment this is not the case.

Again, The People didn't "decide" on the rights. They are there, regardless of people's decisions. That was the whole point... The King of England "decided" our rights for us, and we didn't like it. We established a nation, a constitution and a government on the basis of endowed rights, not "granted" by man.

Self-evident means, it should be evident to anyone who isn't a simple-minded idiot. And they didn't hold that the "rights" were self-evident, they held the "truth" was self-evident. The truth being, that all men are born with natural rights endowed by the Creator. So they say... The TRUTH... is apparent, even a stupid idiot like Apple can see this... our rights don't come from a King or a Court, they come from our Creator and endowed to us at birth as humans.

How did they know the Creator endowed anyone with any rights? That's what I'm asking.

Do you know what "self-evident" means? Self-evident: containing its own evidence or proof without need of further demonstration.

If it is self-evident why do the majority of the world's population not see it? Where is the Creator? Where is it noted He/She/It endowed anyone with anything?

You wrote, "It has nothing to do with a religious belief of what a "creator" may or may not have "said" to followers, it's about mankind's universal rights we are born with as humans, given to us by whatever 'God' we believe Created us", followed by. "We don't have to agree on the Creator, or accept the same incarnation, this has nothing to do with that."

It has everything to do with that. There are people who believe their Creator told them how to live. There are millions of people who believe that. They're called Muslims. So, unless there is more than one Creator don't you think some form of proof is necessary? Or do you think people who believe your way have a right to invade other countries and insist they live according to the so-called inherent rights your Creator supposedly endowed you with?

All you are doing is repeating what someone else said without any understanding whatsoever. It's like listening to a 7 year old telling someone what the best car is to buy. They have no idea but they heard their mother or father say something and they repeat it. When asked for details it's surprising how similar their remarks are to yours.

 

[CanceledB]

You are welcome to your opinion. But I would also suggest that you be grateful for those of us that do hunt, since the extra fees and taxes we pay fund much of the state conservation efforts.

And quite a few game species, such as whitetail deer, have no natural predators left. If you think seeing one shot makes you feel ill, be glad there are not millions of them starving and destroying the habitat for untold numbers of other animals.

You're welcome.

I didn't thank you and I don't thank you. You're entitled to feel and act as you do, including kidding yourself that you're providing some 'service'. The destroyed habitat is due to human interference and encroachment; what you do is a band-aid on what humanity does and continues to do. With all due respect, there's nothing to be gained by either of us in this discussion. You're not going to 'enlighten' me on the subject. Your assumption that I am ignorant or naive about hunting is erroneous. My position is an informed one. I simply don't respect it as a 'sport' or 'service'.

 

[apple0154]

Except that the TRUTH about those rights for blacks didn't exist until dipshit mortal MEN decided that they did. How do you explain that, rube? The creator was wrong? Who was wrong, rube?

Oh, sure. Blame the Creator.

 

[CanceledB]

Oh, sure. Blame the Creator.

He's a prick.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

I didn't thank you and I don't thank you. You're entitled to feel and act as you do, including kidding yourself that you're providing some 'service'. The destroyed habitat is due to human interference and encroachment; what you do is a band-aid on what humanity does and continues to do. With all due respect, there's nothing to be gained by either of us in this discussion. You're not going to 'enlighten' me on the subject. Your assumption that I am ignorant or naive about hunting is erroneous. My position is an informed one. I simply don't respect it as a 'sport' or 'service'.

As I said, you are welcome to your opinion.

Yes, the habitat destruction by mankind is the biggest reason all is out of balance. But that cannot be undone. And there is no way to introduce predators in all the areas whitetail live. So either they are hunted, they are culled by gov't shooters, or they over-graze an area and then starve. There is not much else. The gov't shooters would cost quite a bit. Hunters bring in millions for teh conservation depts of teh various states.

Also, the feral hog problem must be dealt with or there will be such a huge population of them that farming will be made more and more difficult. They also destroy all manner of flora. Granted, it would have been better that they never be released, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[apple0154]

There's nothing 'sporting' about it. It's disgusting. It should make you feel ill, so good for you.

I've been trying to make restitution ever since. Last summer I saw a tiny bird on the lawn. After rescuing it I checked out it's nest. There was a hole in the bottom so I stuffed some rags in the hole so it wouldn't fall out again. The next day it was out and the rags had fallen. I set the bird on a branch. The bird was shivering/scared. Cats come in my back yard so I knew the bird wouldn't survive on the ground. A few days later I was in my office on the phone with my wife looking out the window and noticed the baby bird was in the fish pond and drowning. I ran out and saved it, again. I held it upside down so the water would drain from its lungs. HA! Anyway, by now the bird knew me so it opened it's mouth so I would feed it. A few days after that I never saw it again. I like to think it moved on.

 

[CanceledB]

I've been trying to make restitution ever since. Last summer I saw a tiny bird on the lawn. After rescuing it I checked out it's nest. There was a hole in the bottom so I stuffed some rags in the hole so it wouldn't fall out again. The next day it was out and the rags had fallen. I set the bird on a branch. The bird was shivering/scared. Cats come in my back yard so I knew the bird wouldn't survive on the ground. A few days later I was in my office on the phone with my wife looking out the window and noticed the baby bird was in the fish pond and drowning. I ran out and saved it, again. I held it upside down so the water would drain from its lungs. HA! Anyway, by now the bird knew me so it opened it's mouth so I would feed it. A few days after that I never saw it again. I like to think it moved on.

That's a sweet story! Hopefully the baby did move on and survive. Nature's brutal enough without human beings visiting their own sick cruelty upon them. Good for you and your soft heart.

 

[Lowaicue]

Mine are kept locked in a safe or pistol box at home. I don't need to store them someplace else where someone else controls who has access to them.

There you go again, with the greatest of respect. Gun clubs are not, here anyway, places whose trust is questionable. They are managed by a board of proven responsible civilians and senior police officers. There are one or two ranges where gun nuts can willy wave and pretend they are well hung before handing their guns back for safety and going to the pub for a beer. It would be much more difficult for a criminal to get his hands on a gun club gun than on a privately owned gun no matter how many locks you have on the gun safe.
I do wish Americans would learn to like each other and not see everyone and everything as a life threatening enemy.