On Socialism Reconsidered, midcan5’s APP Thread:

IMT said:
Dear evince:

As I see it, elections are a waste of hard-earned taxpayer money with all the democratic import of a national beauty pageant.

Elections are an instrument of social control. They are based on the premise as simple as it is ingenious as it is effective -- that if you THINK you are 'free,' you will not try to BECOME free. You will instead be a nice, quiet, passive, manageable, doting, respectful little tax-payer, a model citizen who lives a second-hand life tailored to fit the interests of professional politicians and their bourgeoisie masters. I, unfortunately, am none of those fine things.

Nor do I do consent to be retained as a political hostage to the maleficent machinations of what is ostensibly my own system of governance. For what compelling reasons ought I to do otherwise?

If no massive alteration of governance is needed, if nothing is so bad that a good election can't fix it, I see little point to your Republican chicanery rhetoric.

I draw parallels to pre-WWI conditions in Europe. I name specific practices of gigantic, financial fraud. I provide quotes from 75 and 95 years past that find fruition in present trends. I indicate our nation's catastrophic indebtedness.

And in reply?

I see no attempt to confront grapple with this. With slight of hand, all is brushed off -- no analysis of global economic crisis, no reckoning with increasingly tumultous international relations or to war as standing policy, no acknowledgment of the class relations behind these developments.

Instead, you proffer a well-managed election which, like some cosmic, enchanted wand, will clear from view the rubbage of history and all that drives it.

Seriously, evince?

Shouldn't you at least describe the policies which [supposedly] will make all this bad stuff vanish, and why they will do this?

It is one thing to 'plead the [electoral] myth; it is quite another to explain how and why this most assuredly will happen.

Unless or until you do so, you give me no reason NOT to assert that Capitalism DOESN'T answer the charges made because it HAS no answer.

And, your full-throated support of Capitalism insufficiently differentiates your party and the Republican Party [for me at least] to warrant an election. If you won't offer more, I suggest that you make your peace with the Republican Party. Other than the way it administers elections, methinks you're there already.

Against your three decades of 'problematic elections' assertion, I offer a perspective which, if some 160 years past, resonates with many instantly.

I refer to Marx' dictum that every few years, the ruling class let us decide which bourgeoisie faction gets to bully, order and oppress us.

IMT
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I did not read beyond this point


YOU are a traitor to this nation


YOU are the enemy
 
you can not trash democracy and be an American


its what the founders left us



you people are not Americans
 
Dear SmarterthanYou:

As I said earlier, that so-called ‘socialism’ is indeed state-run capitalism. And as I also said, it was a stellar failure. So depending on how we define ‘socialism,’ we may be in more agreement on this one than not.

While serfdom relates to a pre-Capitalist system, your analogy has merit. But I’m unclear on what follows. As I’m reading it, a ‘classless society’ and a ‘two-tiered’ system seem to stand in contradiction. And if so, we agree again.

But against that reading, I can’t tell if you reject [1] a classless society or [2], a ‘two-tiered’ citizen status, or if you [3] reject both. If you reject both, am I misreading you to think you hold them in opposition? And if [1] and [2] are opposed, I don’t see how one [a classless society] produces or otherwise inevitably results in the other [a two-tiered system].

But taking up your analogy [if I read you correctly], this ‘two-tier citizenship status’ expresses the Marxian concept of the bourgeoisie [the ownership/investment/banking class] and the proletariat [the working/serf/disenfranchised class]. The two-tiered status you reference is the basis for Marxist analysis and class struggle.

That government power never resolves crises shows good [perhaps keen] insight, SmarterthanYou, though I believe that the point needs further definition and elucidation to stand.

When you say that issues of inequality are resolved solely as people have opportunity to use their skills and create wealth in context of supporting human development with decency and dignity, you state in your own words a core, socialist principle. Indeed, some would offer this AS a working definition of the socialist vision.

As I understand Marxian analysis, resources/productive_capacity are organized in ownership/investment/banking class interests. And it is very much in the interests of the lords of industry, commerce and banking to see that opportunity to use skills to create wealth can occur SOLELY on terms acceptable to the bourgeoisie ALONE. And since the political class [government] serves essentially as clerks to uphold their bourgeoisie masters, of COURSE government will fix nothing!

Under any administration, government is pledged to serve the interests of their overlords, the bourgeoisie class. And we wonder why government doesn’t work?

Where does the socialist program differ? A genuinely socialist program demands that on the issues [community and resource development, education, health, labor, transportation, communications, etc.], the power of decision must be located in the same communities that must live by these decisions. Meaning? Communities of people are responsible to find solutions to their problems. But as long as society is organized on the basis of bourgeoisie interests, that cannot be.

And to invest the power of decision in communities, the enthralling domination of the ruling class must be broken. Only then can power be transferred to the citizenry. As I see it, a politically empowered community is a classless society.

Thank you for a good answer, SmarterthanYou.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/forum.php?referrerid=6197

IMT
 
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Dear evince:

You're courteous to a fault!

The truth is, my behavioral malevolence far surpasses what your overly-gracious portraiture suggests! Also, your refusal to read is a sharp debating tactic! That saves you the need to grapple with questions. Bravo!

Now correct me if I’m wrong, evince, but you argue here that ongoing chicanery has:

'...cheated the people in elections for 30 years,' and that 'we have not had REAL Democracy for 30 years.'

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/forum.php?referrerid=6197

IMT
 
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you hate American democracy



at that point you are worthless to me



at that point your opinion is trash
 
Community socialism, as described by IMT, is not dissimilar to our founding principle of a Republic with powers afforded to states-
 
evince said:
the Idea of Unfettered Capitalism is DEAD.



well fettered Capitalism is a great tool for mankind to harness the good of capitalism and the good of a human centric Democracy.



The founders gave us all the tools to make his work



Those tools are unbroken


they are lying right on the table



the only reason our Democracy is faltering is that the Republican party has cheated the people in elections for 30 years now.


that means we have not had REAL Democracy for 30 years now.


RESTORE the integrity of elections and we will be fine
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once the republican party can no longer cheat the people out of their rights this country will soar
 
evince said:
I believe in this Democratic experiment in government the founders gave us
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jurassic-park-jurassic-park-32625439-500-272.jpg
 
evince said:
once the republican party can no longer cheat the people out of their rights this country will soar
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Once the stupid fucking Liberals quit thinking something is a right because they WANT it to be, the country will soar again.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
what is socialism, except for state run capitalism? it's the redistribution of wealth to 'create a classless society', while ignoring the inevitable result of a two tier citizenship status. that of serf and that of ruler. and the crimes of genocide were committed solely to protect that two tier system. using government of force to solve crises such as poverty has never worked and will never work. the only thing that solves issues of economic inequality is for people to have the opportunity to use their skills in creating their own wealth while having the human decency to help others in developing those skills.
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that is fascism
 
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