On banning the Confederate Flag and Renaming Military Bases

Mott the Hoople

Sweet Jane
OK, I’m the descendant if a GAR veteran. I’m justly proud that he served in an Indiana Regiment and did his part to end both rebellion and slavery. I’m equally embarrassed that his Grandson, my Great Grandfather was a member of the Indiana KKK during its second iteration during the 1920’s. I am no apologist for the Stars and Bars. It certainly has no place in my State if not our nation. I loath the historical revisionism of the lost cause mythogies as they, to this day, have a pervasive and evil influence in our Nation.

Most statues built to honor Confederate Historical figures were not built after the Civil War but at the turn of the 20th Century and in the 1950’s and 60’s as a means to intimidate blacks and to reinforce beliefs in Jim Crow Segregation and opposition to civil rights. If a community decides that these symbols no longer represent their values then down they should and will come.

The naming of US Military Forts after Officers that we’re not only enemies of the United States but many, like Braxton Bragg were also Jackasses and military incompetents is both absurd and ironic. Equally insulting is that not a single Military instillation is named after U. S. Grant who was by far the greatest General of the Civil war and a savior of our nation but was also the first truly modern military General. I would like nothing better than to see Fort Bragg’s name changed to Fort Grant.

Having said all this I’m critical of much that is being written at this time by polemicist who want to eliminate these historically absurd iconography (not that I don’t support that). They tend to be guilty of two historical crimes. The first is “The victor gets to write the history” and the second is viewing history anachronistically. For example this dismissive attitude of Southerners and how the could have went to war over a cause as terrible as slavery.

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.
 
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Assuming the south had some ancillary consideration that explains how "good people" could support that insurrection to maintain slavery,
there is no rationale for people of our day supporting those who did. Hillbilly folk want that flag to say fuck you to liberals at the expense of black people, not to turn back industrial might to save agrarian economy.
The explanation of good people doing bad things is as simple as the Milgram experiment demonstrated.

Take those statues down and place them in a museum of tolerance or civil rights museum. Anyone who opposes doing that is basically a traitor.
 
Hello Mott the Hoople,

OK, I’m the descendant if a GAR veteran. I’m justly proud that he served in an Indiana Regiment and did his part to end both rebellion and slavery. I’m equally embarrassed that his Grandson, my Great Grandfather was a member of the Indiana KKK during its second iteration during the 1920’s. I am no apologist for the Stars and Bars. It certainly has no place in my State if not our nation. I loath the historical revisionism of the lost cause mythogies as they, to this day, have a pervasive and evil influence in our Nation.

Most statues built to honor Confederate Historical figures were not built after the Civil War but at the turn of the 20th Century and in the 1950’s and 60’s as a means to intimidate blacks and to reinforce beliefs in Jim Crow Segregation and opposition to civil rights. If a community decides that these symbols no longer represent their values then down they should and will come.

The naming of US Military Forts after Officers that we’re not only enemies of the United States but many, like Braxton Bragg were also Jackasses and military incompetents is both absurd and ironic. Equally insulting is that not a single Military instillation is named after U. S. Grant who was by far the greatest General of the Civil war and a savior of our nation but was also the first truly modern military General. I would like nothing better than to see Fort Bragg’s name changed to Fort Grant.

Having said all this I’m critical of much that is being written at this time by polemicist who want to eliminate these historically absurd iconography (not that I don’t support that). They tend to be guilty of two historical crimes. The first is “The victor gets to write the history” and the second is viewing history anachronistically. For example this dismissive attitude of Southerners and how the could have went to war over a cause as terrible as slavery.

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.

Well said.

I agree.

Putting the unpleasant truth out there publicly is certain to anger those who are trying very hard to cling to lies.
 
Hello Micawber,

Assuming the south had some ancillary consideration that explains how "good people" could support that insurrection to maintain slavery,
there is no rationale for people of our day supporting those who did. Hillbilly folk want that flag to say fuck you to liberals at the expense of black people, not to turn back industrial might to save agrarian economy.
The explanation of good people doing bad things is as simple as the Milgram experiment demonstrated.

Take those statues down and place them in a museum of tolerance or civil rights museum. Anyone who opposes doing that is basically a traitor.

Good idea.

Create a museum of hatred.

Make hatred something of the past, something to be remembered so it does not return.
 
If only the Republican apparatus got out front on things like this there would not be a groundswell of deplorable opposition.
They know it is wrong, they just don't want to be told what to do. :rolleyes: That's the way this goes across the issue board.
Climate change, civil rights, money in politics, covid response, pick any topic, the resistance to it is usually not substantive,
it about the erroneous perception fomented by their leaders that elites, experts and liberals rubbing their nose in their ignorance and mistakes.
 
OK, I’m the descendant if a GAR veteran. I’m justly proud that he served in an Indiana Regiment and did his part to end both rebellion and slavery. I’m equally embarrassed that his Grandson, my Great Grandfather was a member of the Indiana KKK during its second iteration during the 1920’s. I am no apologist for the Stars and Bars. It certainly has no place in my State if not our nation. I loath the historical revisionism of the lost cause mythogies as they, to this day, have a pervasive and evil influence in our Nation.

Most statues built to honor Confederate Historical figures were not built after the Civil War but at the turn of the 20th Century and in the 1950’s and 60’s as a means to intimidate blacks and to reinforce beliefs in Jim Crow Segregation and opposition to civil rights. If a community decides that these symbols no longer represent their values then down they should and will come.

The naming of US Military Forts after Officers that we’re not only enemies of the United States but many, like Braxton Bragg were also Jackasses and military incompetents is both absurd and ironic. Equally insulting is that not a single Military instillation is named after U. S. Grant who was by far the greatest General of the Civil war and a savior of our nation but was also the first truly modern military General. I would like nothing better than to see Fort Bragg’s name changed to Fort Grant.

Having said all this I’m critical of much that is being written at this time by polemicist who want to eliminate these historically absurd iconography (not that I don’t support that). They tend to be guilty of two historical crimes. The first is “The victor gets to write the history” and the second is viewing history anachronistically. For example this dismissive attitude of Southerners and how the could have went to war over a cause as terrible as slavery.

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.

So do you think it's ok for BLM/rioters to desecrate the Cenotaph and the Winston Churchill statue in London?

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Hello Micawber,



Good idea.

Create a museum of hatred.

Make hatred something of the past, something to be remembered so it does not return.

How about a museum of your hatred?

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"Dive, market, DIVE!

Take DT down with you.


02-28-2020, 06:47 AM #5 | Top
PoliTalker


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We're going down.

BZZZZZT! BZZZZZT! BZZZZZT!

Dive! Dive! Dive!"
 
Ok let's assume we remove every statue and monument to the south, just what will that accomplish? Will it wipe out the memory of slavery and Jim Crow laws? Is the next step to remove all traces of the civil war from our history books? By removing and destroying these so called monuments and basically denying the war ever happened you are doing a disservice to the thousands who fought and died to defeat the evils of slavery. My town was founded as a place for northern civil war vets could retire to. We have a statue of a union solider looking north. Do you know what I think about when I see that statue? Absolutely the exact same thing when I see a confederate statue. Not one damn thing and I am willing to bet 99% of blacks and whites do the same thing. It's only the activist that stir up the shit that brings these inanimate objects to the forefront. Like it or not but people take pride in their ancestry.
 
Ok let's assume we remove every statue and monument to the south, just what will that accomplish? Will it wipe out the memory of slavery and Jim Crow laws? Is the next step to remove all traces of the civil war from our history books? By removing and destroying these so called monuments and basically denying the war ever happened you are doing a disservice to the thousands who fought and died to defeat the evils of slavery. My town was founded as a place for northern civil war vets could retire to. We have a statue of a union solider looking north. Do you know what I think about when I see that statue? Absolutely the exact same thing when I see a confederate statue. Not one damn thing and I am willing to bet 99% of blacks and whites do the same thing. It's only the activist that stir up the shit that brings these inanimate objects to the forefront. Like it or not but people take pride in their ancestry.

It will stop honoring Southern treason and racism
 
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