Obama slaps the left in the face (detainee photo release)

[Bonestorm]

hhmm... well... I guess nothing has changed since I was last around. Dunheap still reverts to acting like a retard in the face of superior arguments and facts.

oh well...

btw..

Demonstrable:
1. capable of being demonstrated or proved.
2. clearly evident; obvious: a demonstrable lack of concern for the general welfare.


I support the administrations efforts to keep the photos from being published because there is clearly evident and obvious negative effects that are easily capable of being demonstrated or proven with no positive benefits to publishing them.


I think it clearly means what I meant for it to mean... because thats the definition of it. Now YOU may be confused on what it means, im really not sure.

SR

You seem to think that the particular argument you are trotting out hasn't been tried before and that this is some new strategy for keeping the pictures from being disclosed. It isn't. It has been rejected by both the U.S. District Court (which opinion I previously linked to) and the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In fact, the DoJ previously concluded that the argument was horseshit and that there was no basis for continuing to appeal the decision and asserting it further.

The problem with the argument is that it is not capable of being demonstrated or proved. It is not clearly evident. It is not obvious.

 

[Canceled2]

That's the whole point, Ice Dancer. To inflame. To inflame every citizen so the next time a government talks about "enhanced interrogation" or "stress positions" or other quaint euphemisms they'll know they're referring to actions bordering on torture.

Let's call it what it is. Let the people fully understand. Let them see the pictures so they don't forget.

Just like seeing the coffins arriving from overseas. Let's rub everyones proverbial nose in pictures of war. Let's get a close-up of those blown off arms and legs so the next time some sick fvck like Cheney gets elected and says something like "war was an option we chose" the citizens will swarm the White House like locusts.

Let the people see! They have a right to know. They have an obligation to know. If more people got inflamed we just might end up in a more civilized world.

Re: SR's post #36:

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

I have no problems showing the abuses. They were ALREADY shown. It CAN be shown that the first time around they incited violence that cost American soldiers and Iraqi civillian lives in Iraq. If they are going to be trotted out again then picture for picture needs to be put up against one another: Like the bloodied bodies of the 9/11 victims and the aftermath of terrorist car bombs. Let's just keep every single person reminded of the abuses and slaughter...one point however is that we have a lot more graphic photos of maimed and slaughtered Americans and terrorist inflicted Iraqi deaths then there are of the naked guys standing on a bucket photos

 

[apple0154]

Maybe not but the point is to burn those pictures into people's memory because people tend to forget. There will be another war-mongering Cheney clone in the future because there always has been and there always will be.

It's not about Cheney. It's about war. It's the how 50,000 young men and women died during Viet Nam and now we have another drag out situation.

Maybe if we had a few more pictures from Viet Nam we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe if the horrors of war were broadcast more frequently on TV or once a month every newspaper had a blown apart body on the front page we just might remember.

The pictures may inflame the enemy today but if they prevent another war in the future just think of the lives saved.

Images of detainee abuse dont prevent wars. This is illogical.

We currently HAVE men and women in uniform deployed to war zones, to suggest that we need to re-inflame a current situation, one that we have made progress in, putting American lives in danger today, in the fanciful HOPES that for whatever reason detainee photos might "stop" a war in 2050 is outrageous.

This type of thinking is neither intellectual or even almost realistic.

SR

It's better than to just keep doing what we have been, generation after generation, sending our youth to the slaughter.

As for 2050 you certainly are optimistic if you think that will be the date of the next war. Try a year or two from now. Maybe Iran or Syria or North Korea or God knows where.

At least Obama has started on the right path by including the cost of the war with other expenses instead of pretending it's not a waste of people's taxes. Now we have to get the sights of war in the general population. It's time people saw the reality.

 

[SR_]

You seem to think that the particular argument you are trotting out hasn't been tried before and that this is some new strategy for keeping the pictures from being disclosed. It isn't. It has been rejected by both the U.S. District Court (which opinion I previously linked to) and the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In fact, the DoJ previously concluded that the argument was horseshit and that there was no basis for continuing to appeal the decision and asserting it further.

The problem with the argument is that it is not capable of being demonstrated or proved. It is not clearly evident. It is not obvious.

I didnt say that my particular argument is going to be tried before any judicial body. You asked me why I supported the administration not releasing the photographs. I answered. Your rebuttal was "horseshit" and showing your ass about the definition of demonstrable. lol

My argument is entirely capable of being demonstrated and proven. There were a great number of captured insurgents that spoke directly TOO the Abu Grahib abuse photos as their cause célèbre. There is fact supporting dramatic increases in violence due to those photos being made public back then. And I understand why, and those photos should have been released, and the results were entirely expected.

Are you really naive enough to think that those images did not incite acts of violence against US troops, that they were not used as a rallying cry for otherwise non-violent participants who joined a violent group?

Its not some random conjecture to suggest that the original Abu Grahib photos had a clearly demonstrable effect in Iraq and in the rest of the muslim world, its well documented. It is historical fact. Did we deserve it? Clearly if youre going to treat muslim detainee's in that fashion then yes you deserve the consequences in the general muslim public.

Are you really going to argue that these photos would not cause us more devastation from retribution? And for what gain?

Any other definitions you want to debate about? lol (maybe try harder this time, maybe something not so obvious that you like such a fool, perhaps?)

SR

 

[apple0154]

I have no problems showing the abuses. They were ALREADY shown. It CAN be shown that the first time around they incited violence that cost American soldiers and Iraqi civillian lives in Iraq. If they are going to be trotted out again then picture for picture needs to be put up against one another: Like the bloodied bodies of the 9/11 victims and the aftermath of terrorist car bombs. Let's just keep every single person reminded of the abuses and slaughter...one point however is that we have a lot more graphic photos of maimed and slaughtered Americans and terrorist inflicted Iraqi deaths then there are of the naked guys standing on a bucket photos

I have no problem with that. Let's show it all. But let's be sure we make it clear the prisoners who were tortured were not the ones responsible for 911. When showing the prisoners also show why they are prisoners. Show why they are there. What are they being charged with. And let's not forget the ones who were held and underwent "enhanced interrogation" and then told, "Oops, wrong guy. You can go now."

I'm game to show it all. Let the people see what their government has done and to whom.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

SHUT UP! You should really try engaging your fried remnants of a brain before opening your mouth. The photos in question are nothing more then additions to what have ALREADY been made public. They would serve NO other purpose other than to inflame. Obama gets that, but stupid jaw flapping idiots just can't seem to connect the obvious dots.

By their reasoning, we should show pictures of the victim(s) and the results of rape; because the outrage over such behavior, would result in it never happening.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

So, Obama has proven that he is an ally of the forces of evil against the march of good. Hopefully we defeat him in the primary next time and put a real American who loves freedom in the presidency, then ban the fringe hate group known as the "Republican party", and execute the forces of evil.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Not good, not good. If you campaign on full disclosure, you damn sure better live up to it...otherwise it will cost you and your constituency in coming elections.

More to come, I'm sure.

 

[Canceled2]

By their reasoning, we should show pictures of the victim(s) and the results of rape; because the outrage over such behavior, would result in it never happening.

Obama was all for releasing the photos when he could have another drag out Cheney/Bush moment to get the eyes off his failing economic recovery catastrophy. I am glad the Pentagon managed to provide him with a reality check of the disregard for human life he was playing with.

Obama is SUCH a political animal and so NOT presidential material!

 

[Cancel5]

Not everyone has been prosecuted, my dear, Rummy is still running around free is he?

What is being hid, where did this order originate, who are the higher ups in the government that haven't been prosecuted. Most we let a foreign nation kidnap our officials, as Israel did the Nazi criminals in order to get them tried in a court of law?

 

[Cancel5]

Well, I think he screwed up on this one.

If Cheney isn't ashamed of our torture methods and the Obama administration is going to leave the option on the table, and if you want it as an option for the President in the future, then we need to get educated on these methods. We need to see what the government is doing in our names. All of it.

If the USA can not face up to her sins and the courts say the pictures must be released, well, here we go again, ignoring the law. Why have laws of this nature if they can just be ignored? Is the President higher than the rule of law? I don't think so.

I agree with apple, torture must go away. The USA must face up to the rest of the world for what we have done. We need to go to the source of the torture order and those persons need to be prosecuted, maybe this would calm the Muslim world, to see some real justice administered and not just the lowly peons who carried out the orders.
This matter has not been settled.

I do not want soldiers to die, but they are dying for a lie anyway right now. The whole war was based on lies...the conservatives were not worried about soldiers dying then, why are they so concerned now?

 

[Cancel5]

Another reason to be sure.

 

[SR_]

Well, I think he screwed up on this one.

If Cheney isn't ashamed of our torture methods and the Obama administration is going to leave the option on the table, and if you want it as an option for the President in the future, then we need to get educated on these methods. We need to see what the government is doing in our names. All of it.

what do these photos have to do with cheney?

If the USA can not face up to her sins and the courts say the pictures must be released, well, here we go again, ignoring the law. Why have laws of this nature if they can just be ignored? Is the President higher than the rule of law? I don't think so.

What makes you think we cant face up to our sins? No one is ignoring the law the administration is following legal protocol to try and stop the release. He isnt "dictating" presidential fiat here, he's directed his legal staff to take the necessary steps to legally fight the release. Seriously froggie, do you not ever attempt to learn any facts before you reply to posts?

The United States previously owned up to the Abu Grahib scandal several years ago. Investigations were made. People were prosecuted. Policy's were changed. Its like you forget that this entire issue has been addressed and these photos are from THAT era, not last week. All of these photos are years old.

I agree with apple, torture must go away. The USA must face up to the rest of the world for what we have done. We need to go to the source of the torture order and those persons need to be prosecuted, maybe this would calm the Muslim world, to see some real justice administered and not just the lowly peons who carried out the orders.
This matter has not been settled.

This isnt about torture orders. This is about detainee abuse, we're not talking about captured al queda leaders, we're talking about petty insurgents held in Iraq or captured insurgents from Afghanistan being photographed nude, or made to lay on each other, this is Abu Grahib type stuff, not from professional interrogators but junior enlisted military guards. And over 400 people have been prosecuted. Investigations occurred, and senior commanders were disciplined. This matter has been or is being settled as we speak. Why do you act like nothing has been done? That the last time these photos were released that no action was taken?

I do not want soldiers to die, but they are dying for a lie anyway right now. The whole war was based on lies...the conservatives were not worried about soldiers dying then, why are they so concerned now?

This is contradictory. Youre saying that conservatives dont care about soldiers dying, but you specifically say that you really dont care if MORE die because theyre dying anyway? How can you logically write something so illogical in nature and in meaning? Why would you support an action like releasing these photos that will have no effect but to ignite a calming fire, and put US Military personnel at more risk? You would think that you would desire calm and progress so that we can LEAVE these nations?

SR

 

[blackascoal]

While I am not arguing for them to be held back... In the interest of logical debate: The same argument could be made in the other direction. If the world "already knows" then nothing can be gained through their release other than emotive response to graphic depictions that were otherwise only known mentally.

The appearence of honest contrition and remorse for these barbaric actions is to be gained.

The appearance of consistency in Obama's approach is to be gained.

The trust of a world we are increasingly dependant on is to be gained.

The evidence that these barbaric actions were not the result of a "few bad apples" is to be gained.

 

[blackascoal]

That's retarded, that's like say just because a fire is already lit, it's fine to throw gasoline on it.

Torturing people is retarded .. as is anyone who would support such foolish action.

 

[christiefan915]

Well, I think he screwed up on this one.

If Cheney isn't ashamed of our torture methods and the Obama administration is going to leave the option on the table, and if you want it as an option for the President in the future, then we need to get educated on these methods. We need to see what the government is doing in our names. All of it.

If the USA can not face up to her sins and the courts say the pictures must be released, well, here we go again, ignoring the law. Why have laws of this nature if they can just be ignored? Is the President higher than the rule of law? I don't think so.

I agree with apple, torture must go away. The USA must face up to the rest of the world for what we have done. We need to go to the source of the torture order and those persons need to be prosecuted, maybe this would calm the Muslim world, to see some real justice administered and not just the lowly peons who carried out the orders.
This matter has not been settled.

I do not want soldiers to die, but they are dying for a lie anyway right now. The whole war was based on lies...the conservatives were not worried about soldiers dying then, why are they so concerned now?

Excellent response, froggie. I disagree with Obama on this, also.

The whole torture business is like a boil that needs to be lanced. Leaking out a little bit of the poison here and there isn't going to cure the infection, it'll prolong it. Obama has to get straight with the American people while at the same time condemning the actions in the strongest possible terms, to show the Muslim world that what happened at Abu Ghraib is never going to be practiced or tolerated again. Obama's been working hard to restore our reputation around the world and I credit him for it. This isn't the time to fall back on specious arguments because he's having second thoughts.

 

[DamnYankee]

Torturing people is retarded .. as is anyone who would support such foolish action.

Calling enhanced interrogation torture is retarded. Publishing our techniques to the world is retarded. Outing guys that developed these techniques is retarded.

 

[blackascoal]

Calling enhanced interrogation torture is retarded. Publishing our techniques to the world is retarded. Outing guys that developed these techniques is retarded.

Your argument is so ridiculously ignorant it doesn't require comment beyond calling it ridiculously ignorant.

Feel free to wallow in the torture ain't torture argument all you choose.

 

[DamnYankee]

Your argument is so ridiculously ignorant it doesn't require comment beyond calling it ridiculously ignorant.

Feel free to wallow in the torture ain't torture argument all you choose.

My argument is the same as yours, that something that you don't agree with is retarded. Mine just happens to be correct.

 

[christiefan915]

what do these photos have to do with cheney?

What makes you think we cant face up to our sins? No one is ignoring the law the administration is following legal protocol to try and stop the release. He isnt "dictating" presidential fiat here, he's directed his legal staff to take the necessary steps to legally fight the release. Seriously froggie, do you not ever attempt to learn any facts before you reply to posts?

The United States previously owned up to the Abu Grahib scandal several years ago. Investigations were made. People were prosecuted. Policy's were changed. Its like you forget that this entire issue has been addressed and these photos are from THAT era, not last week. All of these photos are years old.

This isnt about torture orders. This is about detainee abuse, we're not talking about captured al queda leaders, we're talking about petty insurgents held in Iraq or captured insurgents from Afghanistan being photographed nude, or made to lay on each other, this is Abu Grahib type stuff, not from professional interrogators but junior enlisted military guards.

And over 400 people have been prosecuted. Investigations occurred, and senior commanders were disciplined. This matter has been or is being settled as we speak. Why do you act like nothing has been done? That the last time these photos were released that no action was taken?

This is contradictory. Youre saying that conservatives dont care about soldiers dying, but you specifically say that you really dont care if MORE die because theyre dying anyway? How can you logically write something so illogical in nature and in meaning? Why would you support an action like releasing these photos that will have no effect but to ignite a calming fire, and put US Military personnel at more risk? You would think that you would desire calm and progress so that we can LEAVE these nations?

SR

1. For one thing, cheney doesn't think that what happened at AG is torture and he's been making his opinion known all over the media.

2. The law was ignored by the previous administration. What happened at AG wasn't due to a handful of rogue GI's, it was policy approved at the highest level. These people are still enjoying their freedom while the Obama administration is left with trying to mop up the mess they left behind. Personally, I don't think Obama's legal arguments against releasing the photos hold much water but time will tell.

3. The US previously owned up to the AG scandal because the original photos were leaked, an investigative report was published and we had no choice. bush's WH didn't release the photos and then condemn the actions; it was public outcry that made that administration come clean.

4. Nude photos, snarling dogs, pretend electrocution isn't fraternity hazing. There was real physical and psychological torture occurring. Men were killed at AG. There were no trials or opportunity for defense. We've seen the "thumbs-up" pictures of a grinning charlie graner and lynndie england with the bodies. It was ugly then, it's ugly now and everything needs to be brought into the open and condemned by the Obama administration in the strongest possible terms.

5. Americans need to be reminded that these kinds of actions cannot be done in our name. Most of those investigated and prosecuted over AG got off with a slap on the wrist. How do you think that went over in the Muslim world? Obama needs to make public as much as possible, and repeat forcefully that the rough cowboy justice of bush's administration will never be tolerated again.

6. Nobody can say for sure if more soldiers will die. That's supposition. It's not about simply releasing the photos, it's about the Obama's administration taking a step back from previous practices, condemning the actions and reassuring both Americans and the Muslim world that a travestylike this will never happen again.