obama h/c bill dead?

[Damocles]

That's where you take a mis-step. McCain wasn't Bush either.

Obama (and Hillary, when the primaries were going on) ran loud & clear on not just healthcare reform, but universal healthcare. Before the TEA party version of fear factor started, most polls showed pretty widespread support for it, as well. The election was as much a referendum on that as anything.

People aren't happy about healthcare, Damo. They're not happy about the costs, they're not happy about the companies they work for constantly raising premiums or dropping coverage altogether, and they are most certainly not happy about being denied coverage when they have insurance, or having to fight tooth & nail for coverage they have paid for.

However, every single D out there called him "McBush" and whole campaigns were based on how "notBush" and by extension "notMcBush" they were.

I understand people aren't happy about health care, Onceler. They are even more unhappy with the current malformation legislation proposed and attempting to be forced upon them. Most people understand that this isn't the "solution" we're looking for and we should start looking elsewhere for a solution we can get behind rather than one that we have to push over at onset.

 

[Onceler]

However, every single D out there called him "McBush" and whole campaigns were based on how "notBush" and by extension "notMcBush" they were.

As always, you have a proclivity for exaggeration...

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

However, every single D out there called him "McBush" and whole campaigns were based on how "notBush" and by extension "notMcBush" they were.

I understand people aren't happy about health care, Onceler. They are even more unhappy with the current malformation legislation proposed and attempting to be forced upon them.

exactly....every single dem, especially obama, ran on "not bush"

to deny that is hack

 

[Damocles]

As always, you have a proclivity for exaggeration...

Yes, I was essential in getting the necessary legislation passed and took an active role in inventing hyperbole on this site.

Of course that doesn't change anything that I have said. People voted for "notBush" and they are now understanding that sometimes there are consequences.

 

[Onceler]

exactly....every single dem, especially obama, ran on "not bush"

to deny that is hack

No, it isn't. The right spends most of its time these days rewriting history.

Obviously, a lot of the campaign was a repudiation of the Bush years, and there were certainly efforts to keep McCain tied to Bush.

But if you paid attention to the actual campaigns & the candidates, healthcare was HUGE. Hillary & Obama spent a ridiculous amount of time on it in the primaries, parsing every aspect of what were pretty similar plans they had. Obama carried that over into the general in a big way; he didn't just talk about universal healthcare. It was a promise.

To deny THAT is hack...

 

[Onceler]

Yes, I was essential in getting the necessary legislation passed and took an active role in inventing hyperbole on this site.

Of course that doesn't change anything that I have said. People voted for "notBush" and they are now understanding that sometimes there are consequences.

Oh, I think people came to understand the consequences when they voted for amBush, as well...

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

No, it isn't. The right spends most of its time these days rewriting history.

Obviously, a lot of the campaign was a repudiation of the Bush years, and there were certainly efforts to keep McCain tied to Bush.

But if you paid attention to the actual campaigns & the candidates, healthcare was HUGE. Hillary & Obama spent a ridiculous amount of time on it in the primaries, parsing every aspect of what were pretty similar plans they had. Obama carried that over into the general in a big way; he didn't just talk about universal healthcare. It was a promise.

To deny THAT is hack...

thank you

 

[Damocles]

No, it isn't. The right spends most of its time these days rewriting history.

Obviously, a lot of the campaign was a repudiation of the Bush years, and there were certainly efforts to keep McCain tied to Bush.

But if you paid attention to the actual campaigns & the candidates, healthcare was HUGE. Hillary & Obama spent a ridiculous amount of time on it in the primaries, parsing every aspect of what were pretty similar plans they had. Obama carried that over into the general in a big way; he didn't just talk about universal healthcare. It was a promise.

To deny THAT is hack...

Yes, but the amount of time they spent in the Primaries on HCR was not the reason most of the Independents went D this time. I am telling you, the Primaries were a big deal to the Demobots, not to most of the rest of the nation (at least in regard to HCR). You are confusing what you thought as important with the reason other people voted. Other people do not necessarily think as you do, no matter how much you want it to be that way.

 

[Onceler]

Yes, but the amount of time they spent in the Primaries on HCR was not the reason most of the Independents went D this time. I am telling you, the Primaries were a big deal to the Demobots, not to most of the rest of the nation (at least in regard to HCR). You are confusing what you thought as important with the reason people voted. Other people do not necessarily think as you do, no matter how much you want it to be that way.

Took the words right out of my mouth. You have a tendency to interpret things through your myopic perspective.

I can't imagine that anyone who went to the polls in November and pulled the lever for Obama didn't understand that universal healthcare was one of his major initiatives. He hardly abandoned it after the primaries.

 

[Damocles]

Took the words right out of my mouth. You have a tendency to interpret things through your myopic perspective.

I can't imagine that anyone who went to the polls in November and pulled the lever for Obama didn't understand that universal healthcare was one of his major initiatives. He hardly abandoned it after the primaries.

Again, that was not the reason they voted for him, they took a risk and not one they are willing to continue taking. We have the very clear evidence of the rejection of the form of malformation they have chosen to attempt to foist onto us to look at.

Seriously, the "I know you are, but what am I" argument went the way of the dinosaur after kindergarten.

 

[Onceler]

Again, that was not the reason they voted for him. We have the very clear evidence of the rejection of the form of malformation they chose to attempt.

Seriously, the "I know you are, but what am I" argument went the way of the dinosaur after kindergarten.

Oh, piss off. Your sanctimonious "now people realize there are consequences" is moronic.

How old are you? How many times does this have to happen before you get the gist? Party sweeps into power. Party overreaches. Voters get nervous. Voters want checks. Voters sweep other party into power.

Rinse, cycle, repeat.....

 

[Damocles]

Oh, piss off. Your sanctimonious "now people realize there are consequences" is moronic.

How old are you? How many times does this have to happen before you get the gist? Party sweeps into power. Party overreaches. Voters get nervous. Voters want checks. Voters sweep other party into power.

Rinse, cycle, repeat.....

It is reality. What is "moronic" is the attempt to deliberately misinterpret what people say.

And that cycle is what I am pointing out here, it wasn't HCR, they voted for the Ds because the other party needed to be "punished"... People in your party realized the sentiment and a huge amount of them ran solely on being "notBush" while painting any R as "McBush" or its equivalent with their name attached...

Shoot they still sometimes try it.

 

[Epicurus]

Took the words right out of my mouth. You have a tendency to interpret things through your myopic perspective.

I can't imagine that anyone who went to the polls in November and pulled the lever for Obama didn't understand that universal healthcare was one of his major initiatives. He hardly abandoned it after the primaries.

Plenty of people who voted for him didn't believe he would take action on it. It's silly to think otherewise.

It's the 1st Commandment of politics that the issue discussed most in the campaign is the least likely to be implemented.

Bush campaigned on SS Reform and no nation-building.

Bush Sr. told us to read his lips "No New Taxes!".

Hell it would almost be ridiculous to assume that any politician's campaign promises will be fulfilled. I'm not going to be like Damo and say "most", but a considerable number of people (including myself) voted for Obama not believing that universal healthcare was a real priority of his and that passing it was impossible even if it were.

 

[Onceler]

It is reality. What is "moronic" is the attempt to deliberately misinterpret what people say.

And that cycle is what I am pointing out here, it wasn't HCR, they voted for the Ds because the other party needed to be "punished"...

In an average year, people wouldn't have gotten so crazy nervous about healthcare. After 14 years in the wilderness, enough had happened to average Americans & their healthcare that they were ready for it, in normal circumstances. It was a very flawed bill, but it wouldn't have normally sent people running for the hills, or in this case, to Brown.

With the bailouts, the stimulus, the job losses and the general prolonged tanking of the economy, it was too much. The right very successfully portrayed it as a Democratic party out of control, spending like mad with no checks and no sense of consequences.

Now, we can debate all day about the stimulus & bailouts; I know you were against those measures, and, as you know, I was for them. But because of those, healthcare was clearly the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Damocles]

Plenty of people who voted for him didn't believe he would take action on it. It's silly to think otherewise.

It's the 1st Commandment of politics that the issue discussed most in the campaign is the least likely to be implemented.

Bush campaigned on SS Reform and no nation-building.

Bush Sr. told us to read his lips "No New Taxes!".

Hell it would almost be ridiculous to assume that any politician's campaign promises will be fulfilled. I'm not going to be like Damo and say "most", but a considerable number of people (including myself) voted for Obama not believing that universal healthcare was a real priority of his and that passing it was impossible even if it were.

I solely say that most independents were not voting for HCR, they were voting for notBush... I think, like Onceler, that most Ds were voting for HCR along with other reforms. That he didn't keep many of the promises (I'll have all those meetings on CSPAN, every bill will be online for your viewing pleasure for eleventy billion years) has even turned some of those people off.

 

[Onceler]

Plenty of people who voted for him didn't believe he would take action on it. It's silly to think otherewise.

It's the 1st Commandment of politics that the issue discussed most in the campaign is the least likely to be implemented.

Bush campaigned on SS Reform and no nation-building.

Bush Sr. told us to read his lips "No New Taxes!".

Hell it would almost be ridiculous to assume that any politician's campaign promises will be fulfilled. I'm not going to be like Damo and say "most", but a considerable number of people (including myself) voted for Obama not believing that universal healthcare was a real priority of his and that passing it was impossible even if it were.

Bush tried SS reform, and that failure is one of the biggest domestic failures of his Presidency. Bush Sr. lost in '92 because of no new taxes.

I don't know; we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Addressing healthcare in some sweeping way was one of the top themes of the whole campaign; I don't get the idea that people voted for him anyway, thinking "aw, he'll never really try it..."

 

[Good Luck]

No, it isn't. The right spends most of its time these days rewriting history.

Obviously, a lot of the campaign was a repudiation of the Bush years, and there were certainly efforts to keep McCain tied to Bush.

But if you paid attention to the actual campaigns & the candidates, healthcare was HUGE. Hillary & Obama spent a ridiculous amount of time on it in the primaries, parsing every aspect of what were pretty similar plans they had. Obama carried that over into the general in a big way; he didn't just talk about universal healthcare. It was a promise.

To deny THAT is hack...

You are ignoring that health care was primarily debated during the PRIMARIES. Once the campaign became Obama vs McCain, health care as an issue was shoved way in the background, first because Iraq was the big issue, then because the banking crisis over shadowed everything. Obama would mention it once in a while - but only when in friendly territory - while McCain ignored the topic all together. Was it even a topic in their debates?

But the nicknames of McBush and McSame were flying fast and furious in all corners. And who can forget (since some still parrot it) "Bush and the republicans ruined this country, it is time for change." The entire focus of the DNC across the country in damned near every race was "we are not Bush/republican".

But now, at least some of the people are recognizing what that claim actually means. "'I am not the big bad wolf!' explained the fox to the chicken coop."

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Plenty of people who voted for him didn't believe he would take action on it. It's silly to think otherewise.

It's the 1st Commandment of politics that the issue discussed most in the campaign is the least likely to be implemented.

Bush campaigned on SS Reform and no nation-building.

Bush Sr. told us to read his lips "No New Taxes!".

Hell it would almost be ridiculous to assume that any politician's campaign promises will be fulfilled. I'm not going to be like Damo and say "most", but a considerable number of people (including myself) voted for Obama not believing that universal healthcare was a real priority of his and that passing it was impossible even if it were.

You heard it here, folks. Obama being criticized for keeping his campaign promises.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You are ignoring that health care was primarily debated during the PRIMARIES. Once the campaign became Obama vs McCain, health care as an issue was shoved way in the background, first because Iraq was the big issue, then because the banking crisis over shadowed everything. Obama would mention it once in a while - but only when in friendly territory - while McCain ignored the topic all together. Was it even a topic in their debates?

But the nicknames of McBush and McSame were flying fast and furious in all corners. And who can forget (since some still parrot it) "Bush and the republicans ruined this country, it is time for change." The entire focus of the DNC across the country in damned near every race was "we are not Bush/republican".

But now, at least some of the people are recognizing what that claim actually means. "'I am not the big bad wolf!' explained the fox to the chicken coop."

People who don't believe in UHC are murderers. You are a murderer. According to your logic, you should be executed. You are evil and wrong in every way it is possible to be evil and wrong. You are the scum of the human race and deserve a bullet to the head, fucking piece of shit.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I solely say that most independents were not voting for HCR, they were voting for notBush... I think, like Onceler, that most Ds were voting for HCR along with other reforms. That he didn't keep many of the promises (I'll have all those meetings on CSPAN, every bill will be online for your viewing pleasure for eleventy billion years) has even turned some of those people off.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122620185