New polls on who we are

[blackascoal]

I agree with all of these, but guaranteeing something does not mean it has to provide something. There is a difference.

I've said long ago, the two parties have the same goals, just a different path to get there. Yet you keep posting polls like these as if we're supposed to be surprised.

There is a very good reason for posting these polls that challenge the notion that we are a center-right nation.

The poll on healthcare has remained constant over the last ten years, which makes a significant argument.

 

[Damocles]

There is a very good reason for posting these polls that challenge the notion that we are a center-right nation.

The poll on healthcare has remained constant over the last ten years, which makes a significant argument.

The way people think on this, because of the way the question is worded, is not indicative of their political lean.

Ask if they believe that the government should be the provider of that health care and the results would differ.

The government can guarantee something without being the sole provider of it, and sometimes can guarantee it through money to other levels of government (the states).

For example, the government insures your retirement in the form of SS, yet you can save your own money and have a better retirement than I have if I am foolish enough to rely on the government program.

Personally, I think that what we'll end up with will be something more like that, you will get a base level guaranteed, but will be able to enhance that through either the self-purchase or through employment insurance programs.

 

[evince]

Damo, NO FUCKING ONE is suggesting the gov PROVIDE health care.

 

[Damocles]

Damo, NO FUCKING ONE is suggesting the gov PROVIDE health care.

Some are, but that isn't my point, the assumption that because people think one generality it makes everybody lefty is a poor assumption.

You suggested a "single payer system", I pointed out one that is provided by a government that has problems and it excludes self-solutions by making it illegal to pay for the same thing yourself.

You're so ready to take issue you don't even read my posts. I already stated that if we are going to do this thing I prefer a program more like Obama's and one that is nothing like Billarycare. I also state what I think we'll end up with. A bare-bones guarantee with the capacity to flesh it out with your own solutions or one from your employer.

I'm not hating on Obama or anything here, I am just pointing out that a generality like this is not indicative of a political lean because of the many ways the government can "guarantee" something.

 

[Cancel3]

"Forgive me, Desh, but I damned sure do not trust politicians to look out for my best interests."

In this sentance you have just said you dont like the government the founders left us.

Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one.

Its not that we don't like the government the founders left us. Its that we have watched the politicians do what they do for long enough.

Desh, are you honestly going to say you trust most politicians to look out for your best interests?

I'll make it easier. Do you trust most democrat politicians to look out for your best interests?



As far as the "Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one", just because we do not trust politicians does not mean we surrender our nation and leave.

That is basically what the Bush administration said when they demanded that anyone who did not support them should leave the country.

 

[Immanuel]

THIS is a fucking lie Immie, WE DO NOT SAY THESE THINGS YOU GUYS PRETEND WE DO!


The things I posted are direct fucking quotes from the right.

"Forgive me, Desh, but I damned sure do not trust politicians to look out for my best interests."

In this sentance you have just said you dont like the government the founders left us.

Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one.

You are lieing Desh, that is exactly what the left claims every single day.

I am not leaving MY country. I love my country. What I can't stand is the corruption that has overtaken Washington DC. I realize that you are perfectly okay with corruption as you are a Democrat to the core, but there are many people in this country that have morals and do not appreciate having thieves in control of the greatest nation on earth.

Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one.

By this sentence you have proven that you are not an American nor are you an adult as you have shown that you do not believe in the First Amendment. In your book, anyone who excercises their right to free speach that does not conincide with your point of view, has no right to speak.

Maybe you should move to Russia! Life in Russia is more suitable to your beliefs.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Its not that we don't like the government the founders left us. Its that we have watched the politicians do what they do for long enough.

Desh, are you honestly going to say you trust most politicians to look out for your best interests?

I'll make it easier. Do you trust most democrat politicians to look out for your best interests?



As far as the "Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one", just because we do not trust politicians does not mean we surrender our nation and leave.

That is basically what the Bush administration said when they demanded that anyone who did not support them should leave the country.

Amen and thank you for that.

She definitely sounds like the Bush Admin in her comments to me. Like I said, Life in Russia would be more her style.

Immie

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

THIS is a fucking lie Immie, WE DO NOT SAY THESE THINGS YOU GUYS PRETEND WE DO!


The things I posted are direct fucking quotes from the right.

"Forgive me, Desh, but I damned sure do not trust politicians to look out for my best interests."

In this sentance you have just said you dont like the government the founders left us.

Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one.

True, you do hear that from the right... and from the left we get....

Suggestions to save SS get.... 'They are trying to steal your social security checks'

Suggestions to improve Welfare gets... 'Reps hate the poor/minorities'

Both sides extremes like to use the fear factor to try and drive public opinion.

 

[Damocles]

True, you do hear that from the right... and from the left we get....

Suggestions to save SS get.... 'They are trying to steal your social security checks'

Suggestions to improve Welfare gets... 'Reps hate the poor/minorities'

Both sides extremes like to use the fear factor to try and drive public opinion.

Remember Patsy Schroeder pounding her fist on the pulpit telling us that Rush Limbaugh wanted his grandmother to eat dog food? Back then we were "coming for your children!" Yeah, there's no rabid slobbering lefties anywhere...

 

[Immanuel]

Yeah, there's no rabid slobbering lefties anywhere...

Really? Allow me to present the State's Exhibit #1:

THIS is a fucking lie Immie, WE DO NOT SAY THESE THINGS YOU GUYS PRETEND WE DO!


The things I posted are direct fucking quotes from the right.

"Forgive me, Desh, but I damned sure do not trust politicians to look out for my best interests."

In this sentance you have just said you dont like the government the founders left us.

Great then leave the country and let the adults take care of this one.

The state rests.

Immie

 

[blackascoal]

The way people think on this, because of the way the question is worded, is not indicative of their political lean.

Ask if they believe that the government should be the provider of that health care and the results would differ.

The government can guarantee something without being the sole provider of it, and sometimes can guarantee it through money to other levels of government (the states).

For example, the government insures your retirement in the form of SS, yet you can save your own money and have a better retirement than I have if I am foolish enough to rely on the government program.

Personally, I think that what we'll end up with will be something more like that, you will get a base level guaranteed, but will be able to enhance that through either the self-purchase or through employment insurance programs.

One doesn't really need a poll to recognize we are not a center-right nation .. and polls, as imperfect as they may be, often accurately reflect the sentiments they've arrived at. People tend to ignore and dispute polls they don't like .. not saying this is what you're doing .. but polls have been a reliable benchmark of public opinion for many years. Not perfect, but polls that tend to arrive at the same conclusion over years are often quite accurate .,. as with healthcare.

Social Security is the bedrock safety-net for seniors in the US .. without which many couldn't afford to stay alive.

Imagine if this nation had been foolish ebough to privatize SS and GAMBLE on the stock market?

Lots of people claim they'll be prepared for retirement, but nobody has a crystal ball to see that for sure. There are lots of people who thought that before catastrophe hit. Healthcare costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy .. and you can't forsee the future of your health or a loved one.

Better to keep SS just as it is .. but make politicians leave it alone.

Also, I don't share this fear of "government."

 

[Damocles]

One doesn't really need a poll to recognize we are not a center-right nation .. and polls, as imperfect as they may be, often accurately reflect the sentiments they've arrived at. People tend to ignore and dispute polls they don't like .. not saying this is what you're doing .. but polls have been a reliable benchmark of public opinion for many years. Not perfect, but polls that tend to arrive at the same conclusion over years are often quite accurate .,. as with healthcare.

Social Security is the bedrock safety-net for seniors in the US .. without which many couldn't afford to stay alive.

Imagine if this nation had been foolish ebough to privatize SS and GAMBLE on the stock market?

Lots of people claim they'll be prepared for retirement, but nobody has a crystal ball to see that for sure. There are lots of people who thought that before catastrophe hit. Healthcare costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy .. and you can't forsee the future of your health or a loved one.

Better to keep SS just as it is .. but make politicians leave it alone.

Also, I don't share this fear of "government."

Nobody ever suggested a full privatization, that's a weak straw man for somebody intelligent like you to use. Basically it's like Desh battling the "government run" argument that I didn't make, but that one was a bit better disguised.

Imagine if they were able to invest a small portion in something that gave them a better return.

As an example I'll use direct stock (there was never a proposal by any administration for direct stock investment in this manner, this is just used to illustrate the "imagine the stocks OMGZZZ!!ers OBamas for The WINAZZZZ!!" argument that the lefties have been using of late).

I bought AAPL (Apple) way back in the day when it was at $7 with the small percentage that I was allowed to put into a private account, that stock went up to $189 after splitting once. While it did lose value from the $189 (down to $88 at one time, now at just over $100) it never even got close to losing me money...

Or I never was allowed to do that and all money that I paid into retirement insurance was spent by the government so that the next generation was burdened with my retirement, I got a negative return on 100% of the money I gave to the government to spend.

Was I better off with the negative return of government insurance, or was I better off with the loss I took in the market?

I know which one I prefer. (BTW - That is the result of my actual AAPL purchase that I wish I could have in portion of my SS insurance).

 

[uscitizen]

We need a tax on Tennis balls.

 

[blackascoal]

Nobody ever suggested a full privatization, that's a weak straw man for somebody intelligent like you to use. Basically it's like Desh battling the "government run" argument that I didn't make, but that one was a bit better disguised.

Imagine if they were able to invest a small portion in something that gave them a better return.

As an example I'll use direct stock (there was never a proposal by any administration for direct stock investment in this manner, this is just used to illustrate the "imagine the stocks OMGZZZ!!ers OBamas for The WINAZZZZ!!" argument that the lefties have been using of late).

I bought AAPL (Apple) way back in the day when it was at $7 with the small percentage that I was allowed to put into a private account, that stock went up to $189 after splitting once. While it did lose value from the $189 (down to $88 at one time, now at just over $100) it never even got close to losing me money...

Or I never was allowed to do that and all money that I paid into retirement insurance was spent by the government so that the next generation was burdened with my retirement, I got a negative return on 100% of the money I gave to the government to spend.

Was I better off with the negative return of government insurance, or was I better off with the loss I took in the market?

I know which one I prefer. (BTW - That is the result of my actual AAPL purchase that I wish I could have in portion of my SS insurance).

Au contaire good brother. Some have indeed suggested full privatization and my comment was directed at that idiot thought, not you.

What you suggest might indeed work for you, but it's not you I'm talking about, it's American seniors, many of whom are not as astute about money and/or investments as you may be. Personally, I invest in my company and the success of my retirement is largely dependant on the success of my business and our savings .. but what works for me may not work for everyone or even the majority of people. I do not see life from the perspective of the individual, rather through the perspective of what's best for society .. and there is no doubt in my mind that SS works far better for society than either your plan or mine .. and again, you cannot forsee your health.

Take that from someone who has already died once.

 

[Topspin]

the right is hanging on to the fantasy that the demographics are the same as their Messiah's time Reagan's.
Obama crushed even with the desparate fear tacticts.
We are center left now.

 

[Damocles]

Au contaire good brother. Some have indeed suggested full privatization and my comment was directed at that idiot thought, not you.

What you suggest might indeed work for you, but it's not you I'm talking about, it's American seniors, many of whom are not as astute about money and/or investments as you may be. Personally, I invest in my company and the success of my retirement is largely dependant on the success of my business and our savings .. but what works for me may not work for everyone or even the majority of people. I do not see life from the perspective of the individual, rather through the perspective of what's best for society .. and there is no doubt in my mind that SS works far better for society than either your plan or mine .. and again, you cannot forsee your health.

Take that from someone who has already died once.

With my plan, you could choose to invest some small portion or to rely solely on the insurance program provided by the government. I prefer choices like that and think that it is better for both the individual as well as society.

With solid choices like the one I put forward, they get the benefit of the insurance program and the capability to take a tiny portion and work for something that they can keep rather than just be forced to pay into a guaranteed loss like the government-provided insurance program.

It's not like I argue against the insurance program provided by the government. While some may say they prefer 100% privatization, no administration or lawmaker has yet to propose anything like that with any ability for it to pass. It's a strawman.

 

[Cancel7]

Au contaire good brother. Some have indeed suggested full privatization and my comment was directed at that idiot thought, not you.

What you suggest might indeed work for you, but it's not you I'm talking about, it's American seniors, many of whom are not as astute about money and/or investments as you may be. Personally, I invest in my company and the success of my retirement is largely dependant on the success of my business and our savings .. but what works for me may not work for everyone or even the majority of people. I do not see life from the perspective of the individual, rather through the perspective of what's best for society .. and there is no doubt in my mind that SS works far better for society than either your plan or mine .. and again, you cannot forsee your health.

Take that from someone who has already died once.

Hi bac. Your last sentence made me think of Natasha Richardson. Everyone always says, oh you should be thankful for every day. But how many really feel it? Today, I felt it. I wish I could remember to feel it everyday. I'm going to try to. I felt so bad. A stupid little fall. You just have to hit the ground in the absolute wrong way. Can happen in your own home...easily.

Anyway, good points. You are right and Damo is wrong, so I see nothing has changed?

 

[cawacko]

Hi bac. Your last sentence made me think of Natasha Richardson. Everyone always says, oh you should be thankful for every day. But how many really feel it? Today, I felt it. I wish I could remember to feel it everyday. I'm going to try to. I felt so bad. A stupid little fall. You just have to hit the ground in the absolute wrong way. Can happen in your own home...easily.

Anyway, good points. You are right and Damo is wrong, so I see nothing has changed?

The fact that she was supposedly laughing and joking sometime after the fall is what makes the story even more sad/crazy.

 

[Cancel7]

The fact that she was supposedly laughing and joking sometime after the fall is what makes the story even more sad/crazy.

I know. It's scary as all hell too. My dad died from this, and the doctors told us that you can hit your head getting into your car, and die six months later. It's rare, it will usually happen within hours or days, but that can actually happen. If we knew everything that could go wrong for us, I swear, none of us would get out of bed in the mornings.

 

[Damocles]

The fact that she was supposedly laughing and joking sometime after the fall is what makes the story even more sad/crazy.

True that.

I feel bad for her family.