'Never Been a Better Time to Buy an Electric Car': Auto Expert

[Joe Capitalist]

'Never Been a Better Time to Buy an Electric Car': Auto Expert
It’s highly unusual for a car manufacturer to slash the MSRP of a vehicle after a launch. But that’s exactly what’s happened to the four best-selling electric vehicles in the U.S. now that Ford has joined Tesla in announcing major price cuts.
Could this be the start of full-fledged electric car price war? The two manufacturers’ moves certainly put pressure on other players in the EV industry to make cars more affordable, according to Alain Nana-Sinkam, SVP of business development at the automotive pricing company TrueCar.
“There hasn’t been a whole lot that’s been conventional about the way Tesla has gone to market in selling vehicles, but the concept that there would be significant changes in manufacturer suggested retail prices in the middle of the model year is a very uncommon thing in our industry, especially at these levels — thousands of dollars,” he says.
Whether Ford and Tesla’s competitors will announce price cuts of their own remains to be seen. The overarching trend in the market is actually the opposite: Prices have been rising steadily, and the average new car is now selling for an all-time high of nearly $50,000.
Price cuts aren’t the only way to make cars more affordable. The more traditional way to accomplish that and entice buyers is with incentives, which can take the form of financing deals or cash rebates. But the option of cutting sticker prices has particular appeal in the EV market right now because cars that cost over certain amounts (which depend on the type of vehicle) aren’t eligible for new EV tax credits of up to $7,500.

In light of the price cuts and the new tax credits, Pat Ryan, CEO of car shopping app CoPilot, says “there’s probably never been a better time to buy an electric car.”
The Tesla price cuts will likely force competitors including Ford to lose money on at least some of their electric cars to gain market share, which is great news for buyers, he says.
Shoppers who wait, however, will have many more vehicles to choose from, especially with GM and BMW’s ambitious plans for launching dozens of electric vehicles by 2025 between the two of them, Ryan says.
If you’re considering a used EV, those prices have also declined significantly. “For the first time since November 2021, the average used EV on the market is below $50,000 — it’s about $48,700, so prices have really come down,” Ryan says. Lower gas prices and Tesla’s cuts on new vehicles have contributed to the softening.

https://www.kansascity.com/money/ev-price-war-tesla-ford/

 

[Lionfish]

'Never Been a Better Time to Buy an Electric Car': Auto Expert
It’s highly unusual for a car manufacturer to slash the MSRP of a vehicle after a launch. But that’s exactly what’s happened to the four best-selling electric vehicles in the U.S. now that Ford has joined Tesla in announcing major price cuts.
Could this be the start of full-fledged electric car price war? The two manufacturers’ moves certainly put pressure on other players in the EV industry to make cars more affordable, according to Alain Nana-Sinkam, SVP of business development at the automotive pricing company TrueCar.
“There hasn’t been a whole lot that’s been conventional about the way Tesla has gone to market in selling vehicles, but the concept that there would be significant changes in manufacturer suggested retail prices in the middle of the model year is a very uncommon thing in our industry, especially at these levels — thousands of dollars,” he says.
Whether Ford and Tesla’s competitors will announce price cuts of their own remains to be seen. The overarching trend in the market is actually the opposite: Prices have been rising steadily, and the average new car is now selling for an all-time high of nearly $50,000.
Price cuts aren’t the only way to make cars more affordable. The more traditional way to accomplish that and entice buyers is with incentives, which can take the form of financing deals or cash rebates. But the option of cutting sticker prices has particular appeal in the EV market right now because cars that cost over certain amounts (which depend on the type of vehicle) aren’t eligible for new EV tax credits of up to $7,500.

In light of the price cuts and the new tax credits, Pat Ryan, CEO of car shopping app CoPilot, says “there’s probably never been a better time to buy an electric car.”
The Tesla price cuts will likely force competitors including Ford to lose money on at least some of their electric cars to gain market share, which is great news for buyers, he says.
Shoppers who wait, however, will have many more vehicles to choose from, especially with GM and BMW’s ambitious plans for launching dozens of electric vehicles by 2025 between the two of them, Ryan says.
If you’re considering a used EV, those prices have also declined significantly. “For the first time since November 2021, the average used EV on the market is below $50,000 — it’s about $48,700, so prices have really come down,” Ryan says. Lower gas prices and Tesla’s cuts on new vehicles have contributed to the softening.

Wet panties joey, you have become a one trick pony. You are stuck with your purchase, now live with it.

 

[LV426]

Wet panties joey, you have become a one trick pony. You are stuck with your purchase, now live with it.

He's saying he likes his electric car, you fucking idiot.

 

[Joe Capitalist]

He's saying he likes his electric car, you fucking idiot.

I like EVs in general but if I had to do it over again, I would've bought the Model 3 instead of the Y.
So, what I'm thinking of doing is giving my wife the Y and I'd get a new Model 3, especially since the price has gone down.

There's going to be a real rush on EVs since car manufacturers are dropping the prices.
Ain't it great?

 

[LurchAddams]

I like EVs in general but if I had to do it over again, I would've bought the Model 3 instead of the Y.
So, what I'm thinking of doing is giving my wife the Y and I'd get a new Model 3, especially since the price has gone down.

There's going to be a real rush on EVs since car manufacturers are dropping the prices.
Ain't it great?

They are the way of the future. Look for them to become more efficient, more powerful and having increased range per charge.

Remember how often you had to charge your flip phone in the 90's? Sometimes my current phone can go all day and night on a full charge.

 

[Joe Capitalist]

They are the way of the future. Look for them to become more efficient, more powerful and having increased range per charge.

Remember how often you had to charge your flip phone in the 90's? Sometimes my current phone can go all day and night on a full charge.

I read an article that said battery technology will improve to the point that it will typically add 18% to storage capacity per year.

 

[Nordberg]

I read an article that said battery technology will improve to the point that it will typically add 18% to storage capacity per year.

China has one they claim is 700 miles after charge. They will just get better and better.

 

[Joe Capitalist]

China has one they claim is 700 miles after charge. They will just get better and better.

They're also looking at 'Battery Swap'.
Go to a Swap Station and drive in their bay and they robotically remove your battery and 'swap' in a fully charged one.
It'll take about two minutes.

The gas car is dead. Long live the EV.

MAGAs wet panties:

 

[Into the Night]

He's saying he likes his electric car, you fucking idiot.

Yup. He's stuck with it. Now he has to live with it.

 

[Into the Night]

I read an article that said battery technology will improve to the point that it will typically add 18% to storage capacity per year.

Li-ion is the same as any Li-ion. It's the same chemistry. Nothing changes whether the battery is in a car or in a game console.
The only way to increase storage capacity is to add MORE batteries to the car (which makes it even heavier and more expensive!).

Oh...it takes longer to charge it too.

 

[Into the Night]

China has one they claim is 700 miles after charge. They will just get better and better.

...and YOU believe them! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Gawd you're gullible!

 

[Hawkeye10]

The push to outlaw gas cars has run into a problem......far too many people dont want the EV's.

More force will now be applied.

What you want is irrelevant.

"UTOPIA!"

 

[Into the Night]

They're also looking at 'Battery Swap'.
Go to a Swap Station and drive in their bay and they robotically remove your battery and 'swap' in a fully charged one.
It'll take about two minutes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Riiiiiiight. You're just going to swap out a 1/2 ton battery pack, including disconnecting associated connectors and coolant lines, in just two minutes!
And what is the 'swap station' going to do with so many dead battery packs??? Recharge them??? Guess you still get to wait for one to charge up!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The gas car is dead. Long live the EV.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Go look at your average freeway, dumbass. Less then 1% of the cars on the road are EVs! MOST are gasoline cars!

MAGAs wet panties:

MAGA isn't a person.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Multiplication by zero still results in a zero...

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They're also looking at 'Battery Swap'.
Go to a Swap Station and drive in their bay and they robotically remove your battery and 'swap' in a fully charged one.
It'll take about two minutes.

The gas car is dead. Long live the EV.

MAGAs wet panties:

Yea, sure... That'll work... Let's see... You have an older shitty battery in your car. You go to a swap location and they give you a fresh, charged, new or almost new, one. You happily drive off having taken the swap station for a bunch of chumps...

Nobody is going to do that because they won't know the condition of your battery versus the one you are getting. Then there's the issue that batteries are different for different models of car and manufacturer. Such a station would have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in stocking a range of batteries for different cars, and the swap out process would vary by vehicle. The swap process would also take quite some time as those batteries aren't just a few connections.

 

[Nordberg]

Yup. He's stuck with it. Now he has to live with it.

So you do not understand it at all. EV owners are very happy with them. https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/electric-vehicle-survey/ You are always wrong and keep the same shitty attitude.

 

[RB 60]

Yea, sure... That'll work... Let's see... You have an older shitty battery in your car. You go to a swap location and they give you a fresh, charged, new or almost new, one. You happily drive off having taken the swap station for a bunch of chumps...

Nobody is going to do that because they won't know the condition of your battery versus the one you are getting. Then there's the issue that batteries are different for different models of car and manufacturer. Such a station would have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in stocking a range of batteries for different cars, and the swap out process would vary by vehicle. The swap process would also take quite some time as those batteries aren't just a few connections.

Not only aren't there just a few connections, many are mounted in the chassis (between the frame rails). Expensive!
That means removal of the car's body to access them. One would think that would take a bit longer than 2 minutes

 

[Into the Night]

So you do not understand it at all. EV owners are very happy with them. https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/electric-vehicle-survey/ You are always wrong and keep the same shitty attitude.

Yeah. You are happy with your Chevy Bolt! *snicker*

 

[Into the Night]

Not only aren't there just a few connections, many are mounted in the chassis (between the frame rails). Expensive!
That means removal of the car's body to access them. One would think that would take a bit longer than 2 minutes

While it doesn't require removal of the car's body to dismount the batteries, it does require disassembling part of the frame. Some require removing the wheels and suspension as well.

For a piece of shit like a Chevy Bolt, it requires instead removal of most the rear interior and seats, rear wheels, and suspension. It also requires a specially designed crane. That battery weighs twice as much as a V8 truck engine.

No...it ain't gonna be any two minutes to remove the battery from these things!

Even worse, suppose you did all that. Now the swap station has a pile of dead battery packs that must be charged and has run out of charged ones. The charging requirements are the same. So instead of waiting at a charging station for someone to clear a spot for you, you are waiting with a disassembled car waiting for one of the packs to finish recharging. You've save nothing for all your work.

 

[Into the Night]

For the twits that think gasoline cars are 'ancient technology':

The gasoline engine has seen a lot of improvements over the years. Despite mandates for stupid shit on engines, such as the catalytic converter (basically a 'pollution to pollution' converter), simple changes have done much to improve efficiency, mileage, reliability, and performance.

The EGR system, a simple bit of plumbing and a valve, has virtually eliminated the smog problem.

FADEC designs have eliminated the inefficient carburetor and all of it's compensation circuits, and eliminated high tension wiring, distributors with their mechanical dwell points, the need for induction heating, and opened better opportunity to include variable cam timing (improving performance and efficiency!), overhead cam systems (improving efficiency), and such niceties as better cruise control (without associated vacuum solenoids and cables, since throttles are not electronically controlled) complete with follower capability, and cylinder shutoff during deceleration and coasting (improving efficiency). All FADEC engines are now MPFI. No more fuel coming out of suspension in the induction system!

The sensors themselves can help to more quickly pinpoint any failure in the engine, improving troubleshooting.

Transmissions have improved a lot too, now allowing better translation of power to the road with fewer friction components and better designs for gear ratios. Four wheel drive is much more common too, thanks to flexible shaft couplers and improvements in metallurgy.

Better gaskets now available improve reliability as well, and are now better able to handle ethanol exposure without degradation. The hydroscopic nature of ethanol as the moderator is better tolerated by these gaskets and sealants as well.

Even the gasoline has improved a lot, despite the ethanol requirements. More refineries are capable of handling sour fuels, make use of fractioning and synthesis to improve yield, and even improved separation issues with the moderator (even with ethanol!).

Computers for automotive use have made a tremendous difference. It is the core of FADEC, and has been extended to FADTC and they tie together for the best combination of efficiency, even incorporating some learning algorithms to adjust to your style of driving and make the best use of it.
They make the cabin more comfortable too, providing everything from fancy dashboard to entertainment systems, HVAC, locks, windows, lighting, and situational awareness (things like proximity sensors, lane change sensors, backup cameras, auto headlight tracking and dimming, etc).

Even the lowly tire and wheel have sensors now...measuring tire pressure, wheel speed for cruise control and traction control purposes, and antilock braking systems. Most of the time standard equipment.

All of this makes the car more comfortable and safer to drive. Many of these features are standard equipment now.

The latest technology is still being applied to the gasoline engine and the car it's mounted in. It ain't done yet! The LAST thing these engines are is 'ancient'!


And their advantage? They are quickly refueled in just a few minutes. Lines for fueling are very rare, due to the number of gas stations. They have high performance and light weight. They are cheaper. Their reliability is very high. They are efficient, since there is only one energy conversion (heat engine to mechanical). Gasoline has the highest energy of any common fuel by volume.

Diesel designs are just as advanced. Better control of fuel flow and better glow plugs mean the engine starts easier and is less susceptible to runaway. Due to the high compression, diesel has the advantage of very high torque, while the gasoline engine has the advantage of high efficiency (but with lower torque under heavy load). This makes the diesel design ideally suited for trucks, locomotives, tractors, and ships (such as most container ships). Sour fuels are less of a problem now as well.

The present EV is basically not much different from designs from 2012. Manufacturing techniques have improved to mass manufacture the batteries, and the motors have been replaced with external rotor designs making use of power oscillators to improve frequency feed to the coils, but otherwise little has changed.
They still suffer from heavy batteries (yes, Li-ion batteries are heavy!), and poor efficiency due to numerous energy conversions to support the charging cycle and again during the discharge cycle while driving.
Like other cars, they have four wheel drive capability in some models (most are just two wheel or even one wheel drive). None of the four wheel drive models can pass the single traction test of a slip ramp. (The only car that can is a Subaru, a gasoline car). Like most four wheel drive cars, they can pass the dual traction test of a slip ramp.
Some GM models can only pass the triple traction test on the slip ramp! (That means three wheels must have traction to make it up the ramp! What a joke!).
EVs still suffer from high costs as well. The battery packs are extremely heavy and require special equipment to handle. The materials they are made of are not renewable and are somewhat rare, meaning they will only become more expensive as more of these packs are built for cars. Mining lithium ore is usually in the form of lithium salts in a brine (it takes months to years to evaporate out the excess water to produce a usable brine). It is then processed with various acids to remove impurities, then treated with soda ash to produce lithium carbonate (the material shipped from the mine). Lithium also occurs in volcanic rock, but can be mined by drilling and processing it with large amounts of sulfuric acid, then treating it with soda ash to produce the carbonate or sale to produce the chloride. The ore is then shipped to a smelter. Lithium metal is highly reactive, so lithium is shipped from mines either as lithium carbonate or lithium chloride (more common). Most mining is done in Chile, Argentina, Australia, and China. The States also mine lithium (mostly in Nevada), but is not a major producer due to political reasons. Bolivia also has a large reserve of lithium, but again is untapped due to political reasons.

Lithium is also found in ocean water (in the form of lithium chloride), but is too scarce to be economically feasible to mine it.

The smelter melts the lithium salt and adds potassium chloride to reduce the melting temperature. The result is molten lithium metal and chlorine gas. Needless to say these two materials are highly reactive and the process is dangerous. The lithium is then packaged with wax to prevent it from reacting (lithium reacts violently with water and even reacts with water vapor in the air).

A typical battery is made from sheets of copper coated with graphite (the negative terminal), a plastic separator, and a sheet of aluminum coated with nickle and cobalt (the positive terminal). A discharged battery contains lithium atoms within the NCA layer (nickel, cobalt, aluminum). When the battery is charged, electrons are driven to the copper sheet, and the lithium atom, having given up an electron, moves through the separator to the copper graphite side. This movement generates heat, which is why charging a battery heats the battery. As more and more lithium ions lodge in the copper graphite side, it's harder and harder to get lithium atoms to give up an electron and leave the NCA layer, requiring higher voltages to finish the charging. A fully charged Li-ion battery has lithium ions occupying the copper graphite layer, and excess electrons in the copper sheet itself. It is now in a state that wants to return to relaxing the energy. It is charged.

Discharge of the battery causes the electron to flow out to return to the aluminum NCA layer, while the lithium ion travels back through the separator to recover it's electron. This movement also generates heat, which is why you must cool the batteries while driving (most are liquid cooled, conveying thermal energy to a radiator.
Yes...EVs are liquid cooled and they do have radiators. From time to time this coolant must be changed, just like any gasoline or diesel engine, as the protective additives break down over time. A coolant leak can be one cause of a battery fire, since lithium is highly reactive, even with water. This can be caused by corrosion, mechanical damage (such a rock or high centering), or just plain galvanic corrosion from the coolant itself.

The lithium-ion battery has been around since the 70's. It has not changed. The chemistry is the same. The only difference between one lithium-ion cell and another is it's size. In other words, the Li-ion battery 'latest technology' is about 50 years old.