NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

[Dutch Uncle]

While I have no problem with helping the Ukrainians kick out the Russian invaders, dead or alive, I agree with our NATO allies about the problems of sending cluster bombs into the region. Yes, the Russians are already doing so just like they are committing war crimes against civilians, but it moves the US further off the moral high ground. Biden should reconsider this decision.


https://news.yahoo.com/nato-allies-criticize-us-move-175523049.html
NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

President Joe Biden's controversial decision to provide Ukraine with cluster bombs was denounced by some NATO allies on Saturday.

Biden said on Friday that the United States would send cluster munitions – bombs that open in midair and release submunitions – to Kyiv as part of its next $800 million weapons package to support Ukraine during its summer counteroffensive campaign against Russia.

British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and Spanish Defense Minister Margarita Robles both said their countries would not support sending cluster munitions to Ukraine.

While both Ukraine and Russia have already used cluster munitions in the war, the Biden administration's decision to send cluster bombs sparked controversy due to the weapon's increased risk of causing civilian casualties. The use of cluster munitions on both sides has already caused civilian casualties.

 

[Jade Dragon]

While I have no problem with helping the Ukrainians kick out the Russian invaders, dead or alive, I agree with our NATO allies about the problems of sending cluster bombs into the region. Yes, the Russians are already doing so just like they are committing war crimes against civilians, but it moves the US further off the moral high ground. Biden should reconsider this decision.


https://news.yahoo.com/nato-allies-criticize-us-move-175523049.html
NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

If it's a civilian casulty issue then there are probably better choices of armaments to send.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If it's a civilian casulty issue then there are probably better choices of armaments to send.

That's the main disagreement among the civilized nations. It's not an escalation since the Russians are already using them.

During the Iraq War and the War on Terror, the US turned to torture ala' the Jack Bauer philosophy. IMO, it was morally wrong and removed the US from the moral high ground. We become hypocrites by telling others to act civilized when we are, in fact, no better than the terrorists and ISIS. Likewise, the US moves off the moral high ground when it lowers itself to the level of war criminals like the Russians.

 

[Cypress]

These are the justifications I have seen discussed:

Ukraine and USA are not signatories to the cluster munitions ban, and not bound by treaty obligation.

Russian defensive lines are so heavily fortified and mined, the Ukranians need these weapons to breach the defenses.

Ukrainians will be using them on their own territory, which is an incentive to take extra precautions from using these munitions near civilian settlements.

The risk of using these weapons is less than the risk of allowing Putin to succeed in Ukraine.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Even if they use them they aren't going to help Ukraine win an unwinnable war.

But war is war so go ahead.

Hell give them a few tactical nukes also, it would make for good TV.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Even if they use them they aren't going to help Ukraine win an unwinnable war.

But war is war so go ahead.

Hell give them a few tactical nukes also, it would make for good TV.

Looks like they've been winning so far, Tink. Russia fucked up by invading. They fucked up again by committing war crimes.

Maybe, after Putin is deposed, Russia can claim all the atrocities were on the mercenaries of the Wagner Group, which is mostly true. The biggest crime is against the Russian people by their own leadership who gutted the Russian Army to line their own pockets. Russian government corruption is the root of all this mess.

Time for Putin to take a flight out of a hospital window.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

These are the justifications I have seen discussed:

Ukraine and USA are not signatories to the cluster munitions ban, and not bound by treaty obligation.

Russian defensive lines are so heavily fortified and mined, the Ukranians need these weapons to breach the defenses.

Ukrainians will be using them on their own territory, which is an incentive to take extra precautions from using these munitions near civilian settlements.

The risk of using these weapons is less than the risk of allowing Putin to succeed in Ukraine.

All excellent and true arguments. Still, if there's another way, even if more expensive, I recommend taking it.

The NATO nations who signed the cluster munitions ban can help pay the difference.....they can put up or shut up.

 

[Althea]

While I have no problem with helping the Ukrainians kick out the Russian invaders, dead or alive, I agree with our NATO allies about the problems of sending cluster bombs into the region. Yes, the Russians are already doing so just like they are committing war crimes against civilians, but it moves the US further off the moral high ground. Biden should reconsider this decision.


https://news.yahoo.com/nato-allies-criticize-us-move-175523049.html
NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

Since Putin's war crimes began, the rest of the civilized world has been clutching their collective pearls worrying about perception, Putin using nukes, etc..

Meanwhile, Putin has destroyed most of Ukraine's infrastructure including destroying a dam, shutting down power generating operations, and halting the grain industry.

I think it's time to stop worrying what the world will think, and stop turning the other cheek.

The Western alliance is all but out of ammunition and weaponry, while Putin is flush with Iranian and Chinese (even though the latter denies it) weapons.

The difference between Putin and Ukraine w/respect to cluster bombs, is that Ukraine will not use them against pregnant women and children.

 

[Cypress]

All excellent and true arguments. Still, if there's another way, even if more expensive, I recommend taking it.

The NATO nations who signed the cluster munitions ban can help pay the difference.....they can put up or shut up.

I don't know enough about munitions and tactics to have an informed opinion. These were just some of the justifications I have read about

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Since Putin's war crimes began, the rest of the civilized world has been clutching their collective pearls worrying about perception, Putin using nukes, etc..

Meanwhile, Putin has destroyed most of Ukraine's infrastructure including destroying a dam, shutting down power generating operations, and halting the grain industry.

I think it's time to stop worrying what the world will think, and stop turning the other cheek.

The Western alliance is all but out of ammunition and weaponry, while Putin is flush with Iranian and Chinese (even though the latter denies it) weapons.

The difference between Putin and Ukraine w/respect to cluster bombs, is that Ukraine will not use them against pregnant women and children.

If we're out of ammo, that kills the whole "Military-Industrial Complex" conspiracy theory. LOL

 

[Noking]

If these cluster bombs save Ukrainian lives, then go for it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't know enough about munitions and tactics to have an informed opinion. These were just some of the justifications I have read about

They are all good, legitimate reasons to send Ukraine cluster munitions. However, there's a "moral high ground" aspect to war, especially the aftermath. The United States still has the stain of committing war crimes under GW Bush. His actions dimmed the "Shining City on a Hill".

 

[NiftyNiblick]

The planet is obviously dying anyway.

Maybe we should get it all over with
and send it off with a bang.

I have to suspect that most of us are bored with it anyway,
so instead of dragging things out,
maybe we should wind things up with a big light show.

It's an option at the very least.

 

[Cypress]

They are all good, legitimate reasons to send Ukraine cluster munitions. However, there's a "moral high ground" aspect to war, especially the aftermath. The United States still has the stain of committing war crimes under GW Bush. His actions dimmed the "Shining City on a Hill".

My sense is the main reason for the objection to cluster munitions is the risk of collateral damage to civilians, and the risk to civilians of unexploded ordinance.

Ukraine is using them on their own territory, and presumably would take extra precautions to avoid risk to it's own civilians. It's a sovereign decision for Ukraine to make on their own, since they are not a signatory to the cluster munitions treaty. I think Ukraine is already using their own home grown cluster munitions, but theirs might not be as effective as the USA variety.

My question as a layperson is about how effective these munitions would be at blowing holes in highly fortified Russian defensive lines, and if the risks are outweighed by the tactical benefits..

 

[Dutch Uncle]

My sense is the main reason for the objection to cluster munitions is the risk of collateral damage to civilians, and the risk to civilians of unexploded ordinance.

Ukraine is using them on their own territory, and presumably would take extra precautions to avoid risk to it's own civilians. It's a sovereign decision for Ukraine to make on their own, since they are not a signatory to the cluster munitions treaty. I think Ukraine is already using their own home grown cluster munitions, but theirs might not be as effective as the USA variety.

My question as a layperson is about how effective these munitions would be at blowing holes in highly fortified Russian defensive lines, and if the risks are outweighed by the tactical benefits..

Agreed. The Soviets used to drop cluster munitions in Afghanistan that looked like toys and ended up killing a lot of kids. Note that the PFM-1 mine was mostly plastic which made it difficult to detect with metal detectors.

Two uses for such weaponry is dropping them on an encampment, motor pool, headquarters area which would cause obvious problems and as quickly deployed minefields denying avenues of attack or protecting a flank.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30021997
PFM 1 anti-personnel mine ("Green Parrot")

his type of Russian scatterable Anti-Personnel Minelet (also known as a "Green Parrot" or "Butterfly Mine"). Moulded in a green, polythene plastic, it is 112mm x 60mm x 15mm high, and has two "wings", one much thicker than the other. This acts as the pressure activation for the mine fuze, contained in the central body, whilst the other, thinner "wing" has no function other than to act as a stabiliser during the delivery phase. A pressure in excess of 5kg would activate the mine, which contained 40g of liquid explosive.
---
These Russian minelets were first used operationally in 1973 during the Israeli-Syrian conflict, and then in enormous numbers during the Soviet occupation of Afganistan in the 1970s and 1980s. They could be air delivered by mortars or from aircraft and helicopters in a variety of pods and containers which automatically open to eject the minelets. These are designed to spin through the air, thus stabilising and dispersing them, as well as slowing the downward movement. They were used operationally to create nuisance minefields along border areas, infiltration routes, and at ambush locations.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Looks like they've been winning so far, Tink. Russia fucked up by invading. They fucked up again by committing war crimes.

Maybe, after Putin is deposed, Russia can claim all the atrocities were on the mercenaries of the Wagner Group, which is mostly true. The biggest crime is against the Russian people by their own leadership who gutted the Russian Army to line their own pockets. Russian government corruption is the root of all this mess.

Time for Putin to take a flight out of a hospital window.

There are war crimes by all sides in every single war.

Need I remind you of some of America's war crimes?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There are war crimes by all sides in every single war.

Need I remind you of some of America's war crimes?

True, but some more than others. The Russians have committed a great deal of atrocities against civilians.

I'm aware. It's part of every military person's training. If one nation commits an atrocity and another commits hundreds of atrocities, do you see them as being equal, Tink?

Do you see a difference between a nation that condemns atrocities and punishes it's people who commit them versus a nation that encourages atrocities?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

True, but some more than others. The Russians have committed a great deal of atrocities against civilians.

I'm aware. It's part of every military person's training. If one nation commits an atrocity and another commits hundreds of atrocities, do you see them as being equal, Tink?

Do you see a difference between a nation that condemns atrocities and punishes it's people who commit them versus a nation that encourages atrocities?

I am on many "alternative" news sources where I have access to all sorts of videos of atrocities, some very horrible, but I have yet to see these hundreds of atrocities committed by Russian forces.

I do have a video of a Ukranian soldier beheading a Russian soldier however. Cut off his head while the guy was praying with a knife.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I am on many "alternative" news sources where I have access to all sorts of videos of atrocities, some very horrible, but I have yet to see these hundreds of atrocities committed by Russian forces.

I do have a video of a Ukranian soldier beheading a Russian soldier however. Cut off his head while the guy was praying with a knife.

You hate America, Tink. You support Russia's attack on Ukraine. You clearly see what you want to see.

No doubt the Ukrainians are pissed. I'd be cutting off the heads of invaders myself.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. The Soviets used to drop cluster munitions in Afghanistan that looked like toys and ended up killing a lot of kids. Note that the PFM-1 mine was mostly plastic which made it difficult to detect with metal detectors.

Two uses for such weaponry is dropping them on an encampment, motor pool, headquarters area which would cause obvious problems and as quickly deployed minefields denying avenues of attack or protecting a flank.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30021997
PFM 1 anti-personnel mine ("Green Parrot")

The mines Russia is going to leave behind are probably going to kill more civilians than cluster mentions.

I think it took decades to demine Cambodia.


I leave it to the Ukrainian government to decide what to do. They are in an existential fight for their existence; they are under no legal obligation to avoid using these weapons since they aren't treaty signatories; the Ukranians will only be using it on their own territory not somebody else's sovereign land; and I suspect most Ukrainian citizens are willing to accept the risk if it helps drive the Russian Invaders Invaders back.