losing dem majority in 2010
- Thread starter SmarterthanYou
- Start date
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
haahahahahaaa.....
DNC is anonymous.....watermarx posts....no DNC
and the same smiley.....i love it....watermarx, if that is you, you deserve some lifetime achievement award or something
DNC is anonymous.....watermarx posts....no DNC
and the same smiley.....i love it....watermarx, if that is you, you deserve some lifetime achievement award or something
C
Cancel4
Guest
WTF?
Socrtease
Verified User
I wanted to be a Marine but I couldn't get my head in the JAR! Airborne!
Socrtease
Verified User
I don't' have time right now, but this is where you and I disagree. The Constitution is not dead or stagnant. It can't be read to mean anything, but I believe it EASILY encompasses the right to burn a flag which is an action as well as expression even if you don't like it. That is all I have time for.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
i don't see a disagreement. I believe that there is nothing in the constitution that prevents anyone from burning a flag either. and the jar comment?
Good Luck
New member
The Constitution was written as it is. If and when there are enough changes to society that a section of the Constitution no longer fits the circumstances, or changes or new circumstances evolve conflict between the people and the authority of government is not defined, then there is a defined mechanism to make the appropriate changes.
Where interpretation comes in is interpreting whether a law or action of the government violates the limits as written in the Constitution. Modern so-called "progressives" insist this means we can reinterpret what it means according to the political tide of the times. That is not how a Constitution is supposed to work.
There are easily enough records of the debates during the formation of the Constitution and the B.O.R to know what was intended by each article, each section, each sentence and phrase. (Know, that is, if you are intellectually honest and not a braindead totalitarian pro-government lemming.) If that intent no longer applies properly to any changes in society, then the proper thing to do is amend, not "interpret." Applying the constitution to law is the job of the appellate courts system. If a decision shows an area not covered, then an amendment should be written for that area of constitutional law. There are two reason for this. First, interpretations are can too easily be reversed with tides of popular political opinion as is evidenced by a faction of democrats who are literally wetting their panties in anticipation of changing SCOTUS enough to reverse Heller. Second, and more important, if a change is brought about by a bad court decision, that decisions is unlikely to make it all the way through an amendment process, and, if we were to treat the Constitution as intended, would more likely result in an amendment that invalidates the bad decision.
Good Luck
New member
And why are you crapping on my Corps?
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
I think it is also clear that the Founders viewed the English Constitution as a failure simply because it was unwritten and could therefore be interpreted any which way. They assumed this could not happen with a written one.
C
Cancel4
Guest
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an8Moh3xuUs"]YouTube - Rahm Emanuel Speaks at the Brady Center's Stand Up For a Safe America (DC)[/ame]
Socrtease
Verified User
It was a joke GL and no REAL slight was intended. Marines are hard core and I appreciate them. I actually took the ASVAB for the Jarines and wanted to be a Recon troop. The Army just gave me more money for college and that is the ONLY reason I was not a Marine. Hoorah! For Marines as much as for the Airborne.
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
A well-regulated People, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of Militias to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed.
I think this is what the left is reading...
I think this is what the left is reading...
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
not all the left, only loonies like my best friend DNC.....
what the far left truly believes the 2nd says is:
a well armed government, with the only guns in the state, being necessary for the security of a free state, the people do not have a right to keep and bare arms as it shall infringe on the state.
Good Luck
New member
I issued this challenge in another thread. Of course it went completely unanswered because all claims that we have no idea of the intent of those who wrote the B.O.R. is simply denial of those who do not like what the B.O.R. says.
Here's a challenge: I will give below some quotes sustaining the open interpretation of the 2nd amendment. You find ONE counter quote for every FIVE that I post. HOWEVER, they must be quotes from the same period in time -- ie: when the BOR were being drafted, contemplated, and added to the Constitution, and/or from those who were involved with the process. Quotes from historically illiterate idiots 200 years later do not count. Claiming that someone's opinion in the latest SCOUTS case somehow refutes the founder's stated intentions is plain assed stupid.
1) "The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America" - (Gazette of the United States, October 14, 1789.)
2) "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334
3) "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788)
4) "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])
5) "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)
6) "...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." (Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29.)(this one is strong proof the founders intended the citizenry to have access to the same weapons as soldiers have. If the soldiers' weapons change, so do those of the citizenry.)
7) "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)
8) "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in 'Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym 'A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
9) "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788) (another strong indicator that the arms of a common soldier should also be available to the citizenry.)
10) "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)
11) "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788)
12) "The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.)
13) "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry)
14) "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts)
15) "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787)
16) "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson) (And there it is: THE reason for the existence of the 2nd Amendment.)
17) "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" (George Washington) (one of my favorites!)
18) "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. (Thomas Jefferson, 1788)
19) "Those, who have the command of the arms in a country are masters of the state, and have it in their power to make what revolutions they please. Thus, there is no end to observations on the difference between the measures likely to be pursued by a minister backed by a standing army, and those of a court awed by the fear of an armed people." (John Trenchard paraphrasing Aristotle)
20) "What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
21) "On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823)
22) "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States" (Noah Webster in `An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution', 1787)
23) "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government" (Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper #28)
24) "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." (Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796)
25) "We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed" (Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824)
There ya go. All you need do is find FIVE quotes from the people of the time that refute the above declarations which CLEARLY outline that the intent and purpose of the 2nd amendment is to allow the people the recourse of force against a encroaching tyranny from their own government.
Are you up to it? (Clearly they are not....)
Here's a challenge: I will give below some quotes sustaining the open interpretation of the 2nd amendment. You find ONE counter quote for every FIVE that I post. HOWEVER, they must be quotes from the same period in time -- ie: when the BOR were being drafted, contemplated, and added to the Constitution, and/or from those who were involved with the process. Quotes from historically illiterate idiots 200 years later do not count. Claiming that someone's opinion in the latest SCOUTS case somehow refutes the founder's stated intentions is plain assed stupid.
1) "The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America" - (Gazette of the United States, October 14, 1789.)
2) "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334
3) "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788)
4) "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])
5) "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)
6) "...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." (Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29.)(this one is strong proof the founders intended the citizenry to have access to the same weapons as soldiers have. If the soldiers' weapons change, so do those of the citizenry.)
7) "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)
8) "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in 'Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym 'A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
9) "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788) (another strong indicator that the arms of a common soldier should also be available to the citizenry.)
10) "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)
11) "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788)
12) "The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.)
13) "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry)
14) "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts)
15) "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787)
16) "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson) (And there it is: THE reason for the existence of the 2nd Amendment.)
17) "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" (George Washington) (one of my favorites!)
18) "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. (Thomas Jefferson, 1788)
19) "Those, who have the command of the arms in a country are masters of the state, and have it in their power to make what revolutions they please. Thus, there is no end to observations on the difference between the measures likely to be pursued by a minister backed by a standing army, and those of a court awed by the fear of an armed people." (John Trenchard paraphrasing Aristotle)
20) "What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787)
21) "On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823)
22) "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States" (Noah Webster in `An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution', 1787)
23) "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government" (Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper #28)
24) "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." (Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796)
25) "We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed" (Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824)
There ya go. All you need do is find FIVE quotes from the people of the time that refute the above declarations which CLEARLY outline that the intent and purpose of the 2nd amendment is to allow the people the recourse of force against a encroaching tyranny from their own government.
Are you up to it? (Clearly they are not....)
I don't really disagree w/ too many of those quotes, and I support the 2nd amendment. I, like most Americans, also support reasonable gun controls.
That said, the intent of the 2nd amendment is pretty out-dated. The whole idea of the populace being able to form militias to rise up against the gov't if necessary was plausible in the days of the musket. But is anyone REALLY comfortable with the idea that the populace should have access to all of the weaponry of the current U.S. military?
That said, the intent of the 2nd amendment is pretty out-dated. The whole idea of the populace being able to form militias to rise up against the gov't if necessary was plausible in the days of the musket. But is anyone REALLY comfortable with the idea that the populace should have access to all of the weaponry of the current U.S. military?
Socrtease
Verified User
No one says that. What we say is that we should be allowed to use any small arm that the US Military uses. Long guns, machine guns and pistols. There was an article several years ago in the Atlantic Monthly or Harper's where some generals discussed what they believed would happen should the government order the military be used against Americans. They believed that there would be officers at many different levels that would order their Companies, Battalions and Brigades to defend the populace against other units that were carrying out the orders of the government. The problem would be, for a short time, resisting those units that carried out their orders. I don't need a tank or C4 (though some reasonable substitutes can be made). What I can do is create disruptions with small arms, I can kill and wound members of the armed forces, and take their equipment. Abbey is right, the rifle is the tool of democracy. It allows an armed populace to bleed an oppressive regime slowly, to death.
Reasonable gun control entails putting lead on target at 400 meters consistently.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
I am. I have more faith in my fellow citizens than you, apparently.
I absolutely think the intent is still relavant today. Much can be accomplished by a few well armed, determined individuals. In desparate times, who knows. I would hope it never came to that.