Kuwait In NATO In '90?

Althea said:
I stated that in my OP.

So NATO's excuse for a no fly zone refusal is just cowardice?

If Putin were pushed to make the next move, do you believe his defense advisors would allow him to escalate?
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NATO's excuse is that:
1. Ukraine isn't part of NATO.
2. The BEST STRATEGY is to let 'Slavic Brothers' fight each other.
3. Putin may 'win' in the short term, but 'lose' in the long term.

The 'Kievian Rus' is a cultural and historic bonding of Ukraine and Russia. Putin is doing something that NO ONE ELSE COULD DO, put a permanent wedge into that relationship.

"What was the Kievan Rus known for?
The Kievan Rus was a powerful empire during the Middle Ages centered around the city of Kiev. It served as the foundation and beginning of both Russia and the Ukraine. Today Kiev is the capital city of the Ukraine."

Kievan Rus - Middle Ages for Kids - Duckstershttps://www.ducksters.com › history › kievan_rus


Putin ... What an Idiot!
 
Jack said:
NATO's excuse is that:
1. Ukraine isn't part of NATO.
2. The BEST STRATEGY is to let 'Slavic Brothers' fight each other.
3. Putin may 'win' in the short term, but 'lose' in the long term.

The 'Kievian Rus' is a cultural and historic bonding of Ukraine and Russia. Putin is doing something that NO ONE ELSE COULD DO, put a permanent wedge into that relationship.

"What was the Kievan Rus known for?
The Kievan Rus was a powerful empire during the Middle Ages centered around the city of Kiev. It served as the foundation and beginning of both Russia and the Ukraine. Today Kiev is the capital city of the Ukraine."

Kievan Rus - Middle Ages for Kids - Duckstershttps://www.ducksters.com › history › kievan_rus


Putin ... What an Idiot!
Click to expand...
Read the thread title.

You and I are in agreement. Each morning when I see the devastation that goes unchecked, I just wonder when/if someone will call his bluff?

When he gives the order to take on the world, will his inner circle obey, or put a bullet in his head?

Putin has already declared war on the world. He has insisted that the NATO buildup was an act of war. A no fly zone is an act of war? Another one?

I wonder if Russian planes will challenge a no fly zone? That's my point.
 
Althea said:
Read the thread title.

You and I are in agreement. Each morning when I see the devastation that goes unchecked, I just wonder when/if someone will call his bluff?

When he gives the order to take on the world, will his inner circle obey, or put a bullet in his head?

Putin has already declared war on the world. He has insisted that the NATO buildup was an act of war. A no fly zone is an act of war? Another one?

I wonder if Russian planes will challenge a no fly zone? That's my point.
Click to expand...

I think you are misreading the Strategy here.

1. We are ALL in SHOCK over the devastation taking place. Lives destroyed. The 'first' reaction is to go in NOW.
2. No one believes Putin wants to 'take over the world'. We all live in an interconnected global world.
3. There is a 'Nuclear Power' waging War. A Power that sits as a Permanent Member at the UN.
4. Putin is doing MORE DAMAGE to himself/Russia than anyone could believe.
5. Russia is the one with the 'No-Fly Zone' over Ukraine.

How did things go for Russia in Afghanistan? Well, multiply that by 10. The West will be feeding 'Freedom Fighters' in Ukraine anything/everything they need until Putin (if he is still around) understands what a QUAGMIRE he has stepped in. A 'Money Pit' for Putin. A 'Graveyard' for Russia's Youth.

The West (if they can steel themselves of the Human Tragedy before them) can simply stand there ... and watch Putin shoot himself in the foot.
 
Americans and Brits start shooting down Russian helicopters, and you immediately cause the Russian people to rally around Putin and the Russian government.

Russian people generally can't understand why they are killing Ukrainians.

They will understand the need to retaliate against NATO, when Russian pilots are shot down by British pilots.

I leave it to the experts, but I would think giving Ukraine more air defense capabilities, and rounding up from eastern Europe some MIG-29s and Suhkovs that Ukranian pilots are trained on, would be a reasonable strategy.
 
Cypress said:
Americans and Brits start shooting down Russian helicopters, and you immediately cause the Russian people to rally around Putin and the Russian government.
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Yes. This is the general consensus among the experts. Right now, with Putin in charge of all 'news', the Russian people all believe Putin. Do you believe the Russian people will sway Putin in either direction IF he chose to take on the world? Do you think NATO is going to win the hearts and minds of Russians who get nothing but lies every day? They already believe that Ukraine is committing atrocities against the troops.

Russian people generally can't understand why they are killing Ukrainians.
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And Putin has upped the ante on atrocities. He's cutting food/water/power to people who are trying to stay alive. What exactly is public opinion going to do to sway him?

They will understand the need to retaliate against NATO, when Russian pilots are shot down by British pilots.
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They already believe that NATO is committing atrocities and have committed acts of war simply by existing.

I leave it to the experts, but I would think giving Ukraine more air defense capabilities, and rounding up from eastern Europe some MIG-29s and Suhkovs that Ukranian pilots are trained on, would be a reasonable strategy.
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That would be an excellent idea, and is better than NATO getting involved. The clock is ticking. Putin already has control of a nuke plant that he will destroy without care about anyone. This is because nobody has challenged his criminal activities yet.

The OP simply asks the question 'why didn't NATO membership apply in Kuwait?'
 
Althea said:
Let's be honest about this whole NATO/no fly zone issue.

The world believes that Putin is crazy enough to destroy the entire world with nukes.

If this is a NATO/Non NATO issue, why did we come to the aid of Kuwait during Desert Shield/Storm?

Because we knew that we had severe military advantages over Iraq.

We do over Russia too, but Putin might just be crazy enough to 'go there'.


Personally, I think a no fly zone is past due, and let Russia make the decision to send aircraft into Ukraine airspace or not.

I also understand the 'cooler heads' angle, but Putin is destroying the entire country with missiles. Will he really take on the entire world before someone inside his inner circle puts him out of his misery?
Click to expand...

Let's get real.....Putin is going to get some type of influence or concession over the Ukraine....it's his wet dream to re-establish some form of the old Soviet Union. That Ukraine is NOT a NATO nation, not much the USA can do beyond $$anctions and shipping arms. A no fly zone is a pure BS notion bandied about by the White House/Pentagon and the MSM flunkies....they know damn well that would led to escalation, full out conflict and possible use of nukes. A" stupid idea, nukes. Russia irradiates its borders as if the fallout stays in one place...NATO irradiates parts of Russia, much to the horror of neighboring NATO countries with the same fallout problem. Meanwhile, China gets on the phone and says, "Hold on, boys!"

Russia is well within it's rights to implement a selective no fly zone, just as we are. It's all PR chess moves.

Why not Kuwait in NATO? Outside of oil money, it can't hurt.
 
Althea said:
Yes. This is the general consensus among the experts. Right now, with Putin in charge of all 'news', the Russian people all believe Putin. Do you believe the Russian people will sway Putin in either direction IF he chose to take on the world? Do you think NATO is going to win the hearts and minds of Russians who get nothing but lies every day? They already believe that Ukraine is committing atrocities against the troops.

And Putin has upped the ante on atrocities. He's cutting food/water/power to people who are trying to stay alive. What exactly is public opinion going to do to sway him?

They already believe that NATO is committing atrocities and have committed acts of war simply by existing.

That would be an excellent idea, and is better than NATO getting involved. The clock is ticking. Putin already has control of a nuke plant that he will destroy without care about anyone. This is because nobody has challenged his criminal activities yet.

The OP simply asks the question 'why didn't NATO membership apply in Kuwait?'
Click to expand...

The defense of Kuwait was sanctioned by the UN and a unanimous vote by the Security Council.

I haven't corresponded with anyone in Russia who believes NATO atrocities are occuring in Ukraine.

Russia had to eventually turn tail and run from Afghanistan, because it was an unpopular war and the government realized it was futile.

I don't think the Ukraine invasion has broad popular support in Russia, but a NATO-Russia war will undoubtedly change that calculus.


Edit to add- I read that USA is negotiating with Poland to transfer Polish MIG-29s to Ukraine.
 
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That was the UN. We aren’t going in to Ukraine unilaterally and there is no way the UN or NATO are going to intervene at this point.
 
Althea said:
Let's be honest about this whole NATO/no fly zone issue.

The world believes that Putin is crazy enough to destroy the entire world with nukes.

If this is a NATO/Non NATO issue, why did we come to the aid of Kuwait during Desert Shield/Storm?

Because we knew that we had severe military advantages over Iraq.

We do over Russia too, but Putin might just be crazy enough to 'go there'.


Personally, I think a no fly zone is past due, and let Russia make the decision to send aircraft into Ukraine airspace or not.

I also understand the 'cooler heads' angle, but Putin is destroying the entire country with missiles. Will he really take on the entire world before someone inside his inner circle puts him out of his misery?
Click to expand...
what a vaporous exhalation of amalgamated 1/2 baked ideas. indecipherable

Putting up a "no fly" would drag us into a war with Russia over Ukraine
what kind of moron writes this tripe?
 
Taichiliberal said:
Let's get real.....Putin is going to get some type of influence or concession over the Ukraine....it's his wet dream to re-establish some form of the old Soviet Union. That Ukraine is NOT a NATO nation, not much the USA can do beyond $$anctions and shipping arms. A no fly zone is a pure BS notion bandied about by the White House/Pentagon and the MSM flunkies....they know damn well that would led to escalation, full out conflict and possible use of nukes. A" stupid idea, nukes. Russia irradiates its borders as if the fallout stays in one place...
Click to expand...

Putin has Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces
a no fly is a recipe for an entangling war.

Yes Putin will get some kind of buffer out of this,
but he'll also be facing a western pro-NATO or even a NATO state too

If Ukraine becomes part of NATO we could still be dragged in
We are doing the right thing. weapons and logistics support only
 
Jack said:
I think you are misreading the Strategy here.

1. We are ALL in SHOCK over the devastation taking place. Lives destroyed. The 'first' reaction is to go in NOW.
2. No one believes Putin wants to 'take over the world'. We all live in an interconnected global world.
3. There is a 'Nuclear Power' waging War. A Power that sits as a Permanent Member at the UN.
4. Putin is doing MORE DAMAGE to himself/Russia than anyone could believe.
5. Russia is the one with the 'No-Fly Zone' over Ukraine.

How did things go for Russia in Afghanistan? Well, multiply that by 10. The West will be feeding 'Freedom Fighters' in Ukraine anything/everything they need until Putin (if he is still around) understands what a QUAGMIRE he has stepped in. A 'Money Pit' for Putin. A 'Graveyard' for Russia's Youth.

The West (if they can steel themselves of the Human Tragedy before them) can simply stand there ... and watch Putin shoot himself in the foot.
Click to expand...
pretty good Jack. i could tweak it, but this is one of your better posts- better to just let it stand
 
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