Jobs vs. Work

[Immanuel]

ROFLMAO....

You really are a moron. Again ditzie... I am not saying anyone WANTS inflation. I am saying that inflation is preferred to deflation. Which anyone who has taken economics would understand. Take a look at every depression in history. Which was present? inflation? or deflation?

Um, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the layman's definition of an economic depression "an intense period of deflation"? For the economy to be in depression, it would need to be in a period of deflation.


http://www.yourdictionary.com/dictionary-articles/Definition-of-Economic-Depression.html

Economists differ in their opinion of what exactly constitutes recession and depression. Many define recession as two or more quarters of reduced Gross Domestic Product (GDP). GDP measures national income and output for a country’s economy. Per capita GDP is often used to measure the standard of living, with the thought being that as GDP rises, so too does each citizen’s standard of living. Hence, measuring GDP provides clues as to the overall health of the economy and a glimpse into the health of an individual’s wallet.

When the economy moves into a recession, the country’s economy enters a period of negative growth. Real income declines, unemployment rises, and industrial production wavers. If a recession continues for a long time, the economy moves into an economic depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation

Deflation in economics is a persistent decrease in the general price level[1] of goods and services, when inflation is below zero percent, resulting in an increase in the real value of money — a negative inflation rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(economics)

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] The term "inflation" once referred to increases in the money supply (monetary inflation); however, economic debates about the relationship between money supply and price levels have led to its primary use today in describing price inflation.[2] Inflation can also be described as a decline in the real value of money—a loss of purchasing power in the medium of exchange which is also the monetary unit of account.[3] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. A chief measure of price inflation is the inflation rate, which is the percentage change in a price index over time.[4]

It is my understanding, that inflation is the opposite of depression. In other words, you cannot be in a recession or depression during a period of inflation since the term depression means a period of deflation.

At least that is how I always understood it.

Immie

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Originally Posted by Dixie:
Wars are a completely different dynamic. For one, you have a huge chunk of the working population leaving the country, which reduces demand and allows supply to be in abundance for a period of time. Greater supply than demand always results in lower prices, which encourages purchases and economic growth. Here, you are increasing demand while supply stays relatively the same, and that creates inflation.

Inefficiencies do matter when you can't afford them, and we can't afford them.

That's called deflation, son, and deflation is more damaging than inflation.

I am reposting this to show where this whole "inflation/deflation" argument originated. I didn't get it wrong, apparently ib1yysguy got it wrong! So you pinheads can jump on him, since he was the one who got it wrong. What I stated was and is correct, "deflation" or prices becoming lower because supply satisfies demand, is a good thing for the consumer. What creates "deflation" may not be such a good thing for the economy. For example, during the great depression, a loaf of bread was a nickle... but no one had a nickle! It didn't matter if bread was a penny, no one had a penny either. The problem was not "deflation" because it didn't matter if bread was $100, no one had that either!

But let me just say, I think this is one more stroke of brilliance on the part of liberals! I just wonder how long it will be before you transition your argument into.... Depressions are actually a GOOD thing to have! I am sure the gullible and stupid American public who voted you morons into power, will fall for it! All you need to do is start repeating it on MSNBC daily, have Keith Olberman and Chris Matthews pontificate about how much better things will be when we are all standing in the line at the soup kitchen! We will all be in harmony as one! It will give us the chance to really get to know each other as we share a bunk at the homeless shelter! Wow... the brotherhood and comradery of it all.... Chris will be tingling in his leg at the prospect! I can see it now! And we'll have The Messiah to thank for bringing us all together to sing hobo tunes by the burning barrel! Life will be wonderful for a change! Change? Did someone say Change? Hey mister, can you spare a little Change? Change we can believe in? LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Um, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the layman's definition of an economic depression "an intense period of deflation"? For the economy to be in depression, it would need to be in a period of deflation.


http://www.yourdictionary.com/dictionary-articles/Definition-of-Economic-Depression.html

Economists differ in their opinion of what exactly constitutes recession and depression. Many define recession as two or more quarters of reduced Gross Domestic Product (GDP). GDP measures national income and output for a country’s economy. Per capita GDP is often used to measure the standard of living, with the thought being that as GDP rises, so too does each citizen’s standard of living. Hence, measuring GDP provides clues as to the overall health of the economy and a glimpse into the health of an individual’s wallet.

When the economy moves into a recession, the country’s economy enters a period of negative growth. Real income declines, unemployment rises, and industrial production wavers. If a recession continues for a long time, the economy moves into an economic depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation

Deflation in economics is a persistent decrease in the general price level[1] of goods and services, when inflation is below zero percent, resulting in an increase in the real value of money — a negative inflation rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(economics)

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] The term "inflation" once referred to increases in the money supply (monetary inflation); however, economic debates about the relationship between money supply and price levels have led to its primary use today in describing price inflation.[2] Inflation can also be described as a decline in the real value of money—a loss of purchasing power in the medium of exchange which is also the monetary unit of account.[3] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. A chief measure of price inflation is the inflation rate, which is the percentage change in a price index over time.[4]

It is my understanding, that inflation is the opposite of depression. In other words, you cannot be in a recession or depression during a period of inflation since the term depression means a period of deflation.

At least that is how I always understood it.

Immie

No.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Right now he is scrambling all over Google trying to find one economist that would agree with his idiocy... to his dismay, he cannot find any. So he comes here and proclaims that no one can refute his points.

No, actually I am not bothering with it because it is stupid on its face. You are unable to comprehend what I have said, and as usual, you want to twist what I said into something ridiculous and ask me to prove or disprove. Deflation is the result of numerous mitigating factors, some of which, may be detrimental to the economy, but "deflation" itself, is not detrimental, it is always a good thing for the consumer in good economic times. Inflation, the opposite of deflation, is certainly not good for the consumer, or eventually, the economy.

If we look at what causes deflation, perhaps some of them are the result of a bad economic condition, but perhaps they are the result of outsourcing, or consumer trend, or production efficiency, none of which are indicative of a bad economic condition. So what you are demanding I do, find an economist who says deflation is better than inflation, is like asking me to find a doctor who says curvy roads are more hazardous to your health than straight roads. It's just plain stupid and absurd on its face.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I am reposting this to show where this whole "inflation/deflation" argument originated. I didn't get it wrong, apparently ib1yysguy got it wrong! So you pinheads can jump on him, since he was the one who got it wrong. What I stated was and is correct, "deflation" or prices becoming lower because supply satisfies demand, is a good thing for the consumer. What creates "deflation" may not be such a good thing for the economy. For example, during the great depression, a loaf of bread was a nickle... but no one had a nickle! It didn't matter if bread was a penny, no one had a penny either. The problem was not "deflation" because it didn't matter if bread was $100, no one had that either!

But let me just say, I think this is one more stroke of brilliance on the part of liberals! I just wonder how long it will be before you transition your argument into.... Depressions are actually a GOOD thing to have! I am sure the gullible and stupid American public who voted you morons into power, will fall for it! All you need to do is start repeating it on MSNBC daily, have Keith Olberman and Chris Matthews pontificate about how much better things will be when we are all standing in the line at the soup kitchen! We will all be in harmony as one! It will give us the chance to really get to know each other as we share a bunk at the homeless shelter! Wow... the brotherhood and comradery of it all.... Chris will be tingling in his leg at the prospect! I can see it now! And we'll have The Messiah to thank for bringing us all together to sing hobo tunes by the burning barrel! Life will be wonderful for a change! Change? Did someone say Change? Hey mister, can you spare a little Change? Change we can believe in? LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Not too shocking but yet again, you are wrong. As stated earlier, lower prices due to greater efficiency is fine. But a deflationary cycle where prices continue to fall is NOT good for the consumer. PERIOD. It creates an environment where no one wants to buy goods (outside of necessities like food) because they fear they will simply continue to lose value. That leads to more people getting laid off, which stokes more uncertainty, which leads people to spend even less..... this cycle continues to perpetuate until you either end up in a depression or you combat the deflation.

As for the ib1 comment you highlighted, he was CORRECT. Deflation is far more damaging to society than inflation. This is not to say that inflation is not damaging, it too can lead to a vicious cycle... you don't want either to get out of control. However, if you compare a 5% deflationary environment to one of 5% inflation.... Wages will tend to coincide with the moves in either. If people have debt (mortgages, credit cards, car loans etc...) which of the two is going to hurt more?

 

[ib1yysguy]

*facepalm*

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Not too shocking but yet again, you are wrong. As stated earlier, lower prices due to greater efficiency is fine. But a deflationary cycle where prices continue to fall is NOT good for the consumer. PERIOD. It creates an environment where no one wants to buy goods (outside of necessities like food) because they fear they will simply continue to lose value. That leads to more people getting laid off, which stokes more uncertainty, which leads people to spend even less..... this cycle continues to perpetuate until you either end up in a depression or you combat the deflation.

As for the ib1 comment you highlighted, he was CORRECT. Deflation is far more damaging to society than inflation. This is not to say that inflation is not damaging, it too can lead to a vicious cycle... you don't want either to get out of control. However, if you compare a 5% deflationary environment to one of 5% inflation.... Wages will tend to coincide with the moves in either. If people have debt (mortgages, credit cards, car loans etc...) which of the two is going to hurt more?

No, I am not wrong, and you just admitted it. "lower prices due to greater efficiency is fine" ...and that is precisely what I said and you misconstrued, and ib1 deemed as "deflation." Read my comments, I was talking about supply and demand, and how wartime effects it, causing supply to surpass demand (increased efficiency) which caused lower prices. I can't help that you are too stupid to read what I posted.

I take exception with your presumption that "deflation is far more damaging" because that is simply not true. It depends on what causes the deflation! You just admitted that! We agreed on that! Again... lower prices due to greater efficiency is fine You said it, I agree! Understand? Now, you want to twist and wiggle around and claim that isn't "deflation" but it is, and it was the context of what I was talking about when ib1 called it that, so either I am right or ib1 is wrong... take your pick, doesn't matter to me!

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Not too shocking but yet again, you are wrong. As stated earlier, lower prices due to greater efficiency is fine. But a deflationary cycle where prices continue to fall is NOT good for the consumer. PERIOD. It creates an environment where no one wants to buy goods (outside of necessities like food) because they fear they will simply continue to lose value.

WTF?!?!?!?!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Look at Immie's wiki definition...

Deflation in economics is a persistent decrease in the general price level[1] of goods and services, when inflation is below zero percent, resulting in an increase in the real value of money — a negative inflation rate. When the inflation rate slows down (decreases, but remains positive), this is known as disinflation. It is a substantial drop in the price level.[2]

Inflation destroys real value in money. Deflation creates real value in money. Alternatively, the term deflation was used by the classical economists to refer to a decrease in the money supply and credit; some economists, including many Austrian school economists, still use the word in this sense.[3] The two meanings are closely related, since a decrease in the money supply is likely to cause a decrease in the price level.

Deflation is considered a problem in a modern economy because of the potential of a deflationary spiral and its association with the Great Depression, although not all episodes of deflation correspond to periods of poor economic growth historically.

While almost all economic theories dismissed deflation as being less than even a remote possibility in modern economies in the last three decades of the 20th century, the only major theory that deals with periods of inflation and deflation is the long-wave cycle known as the Kondratieff wave. [4]
===========================================


Now excuse me, but I think this fucking proves you are wrong SF, in your assertion that "Deflation is more damaging to society than Inflation!" This clearly states that not all episodes of deflation correspond to periods of poor economic growth... it's right there in black and white, a complete refutation of what you stated. It also supports what I have said all along, that it's not the "deflation" which is the problem... again, right there in black and white... It is considered a problem in a modern economy because of the potential of a deflationary spiral! But Deflation causes a REAL INCREASE IN THE VALUE OF MONEY! Inflation causes A DECREASE IN THE VALUE OF MONEY!


I'll accept you apologies now, thank you.

And special thanks to Immie for posting that!

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Yeah. SF is total tool on economics. A total liar.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Military Industrial Complex NWO types downplay the realities of inflation, because it harms people who actually work for a living, not those who can always make more money in their magic money making machine.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Shake your money maker, jesus did. I was proud of jesus when he did that. Go jesus.

 

[Good Luck]

Dixie, I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this, because it's a waste, but what you do not get is that everything is interconnected.

Yes, the jobs for infrastructure will be RELATIVELY temporary, though if the economy picks up & states get back on their feet, those kinds of jobs tend to carry on in other forms. The idea is to just get people who are unemployed working again. Then, a funny thing happens. Those people spend money down at the local diner, taking vacations, buying cars, buying clothes & all sorts of stuff. Their local outlets for these things prosper more, as do their distributors.

Also, actual materials are needed for infrastructure projects, so the distributors & sources for these materials start to prosper more, as well, and they all spend more money at diners, car dealerships, retail outlets, etc., and they also hire new people, who in turn spend money at diners, car dealerships, retail outlets, etc.

Beyond that, some of these projects - like the greening of gov't buildings, which has been such a target of the right - end up saving millions in the long run from new efficiency, giving those states more money for new projects, and helping those states regain financial health.

See that? Everything is very interconnected. It's like a domino effect. It's not just people getting temp jobs for a year, and then being unemployed again, with no effect on the economy.

Get it?

Yes, everything is interconnected. Which is why depending on this type of stimulus is going to flop in the long run. As soon as government spending in the economy starts to dwindle, so does every thing else and we end up where we were before (or worse) with a huge debt to boot. It is why countries invariably go into a depression after a major war - the boom of war production creates an artificial level of economic growth. So, too, will this so-called stimulus - it will create, temporarily, an artificial level of economic growth which will not be sustainable. Either the government will need to find ways to continue to artificially prop up the economy, or it will fail again.

Band aid approaches NEVER work. And this is a band aid approach. It does nothing to address the real problems the economy is suffering from. It does not address why we are facing high - and rising- unemployment. It does not address why the housing market failed. It does not address why domestic automakers are in trouble. In fact some of the money spent already actually encourages the very factors that are causing the mess we find ourselves in: to wit - encouraging a continued reliance on credit spending, especially in sectors that cannot afford credit spending.

This is not about socialism vs capitalism. It is about the government continuing to support a stupid-assed, rose-colored-glasses inspired wishful thinking economic policy began during the WWI post war depression (policies which, in turn led to the Great Depression) and continued with little more than occasional reactionary changes (like this one) since then.

Our economy is in constant flux because we have been dependent on credit spending to drive it. The problem is, for an economy to grow, then in some manner, personal spending must grow beyond inflationary increases. If that spending is dependent on credit spending, then credit spending must continually increase. However, credit spending is a house of cards. It WILL eventually collapse. The longer we shore it up with unsupported government spending, the greater will be the eventual collapse. I would rather we take on the collapse now, and work to engineer a stable Pay-Go style economy from the shambles, than shove it all onto my grand children.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Brilliantly well put, Good Luck!

I agree with every bit of that!

Walter E. Williams gave a really good example of how Inflation works, and it somewhat relates here, so I will share it. He likened our economy to a game of Monopoly. There is a certain amount of money in the standard game, and it is dispersed between the players and the bank. Properties are worth various amounts, based on the amount of money in the game, and what each player has available to spend, etc. But what if I had a secret Monopoly Money Machine, and I could make unlimited amounts of money? I could introduce this money into the game by going around the board making purchases of everything, then the money is a part of the 'economy' of the game. So, eventually, everything is valued accordingly, because everyone has an abundance of money which wasn't originally a part of the game. This is what is currently happening in our own economy, the Feds are introducing money into the game, which wasn't part of the original standards, and it will ultimately devalue itself and make everything cost more.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Look at Immie's wiki definition...

Deflation in economics is a persistent decrease in the general price level[1] of goods and services, when inflation is below zero percent, resulting in an increase in the real value of money — a negative inflation rate. When the inflation rate slows down (decreases, but remains positive), this is known as disinflation. It is a substantial drop in the price level.[2]

Inflation destroys real value in money. Deflation creates real value in money. Alternatively, the term deflation was used by the classical economists to refer to a decrease in the money supply and credit; some economists, including many Austrian school economists, still use the word in this sense.[3] The two meanings are closely related, since a decrease in the money supply is likely to cause a decrease in the price level.

Deflation is considered a problem in a modern economy because of the potential of a deflationary spiral and its association with the Great Depression, although not all episodes of deflation correspond to periods of poor economic growth historically.

While almost all economic theories dismissed deflation as being less than even a remote possibility in modern economies in the last three decades of the 20th century, the only major theory that deals with periods of inflation and deflation is the long-wave cycle known as the Kondratieff wave. [4]
===========================================


Now excuse me, but I think this fucking proves you are wrong SF, in your assertion that "Deflation is more damaging to society than Inflation!" This clearly states that not all episodes of deflation correspond to periods of poor economic growth... it's right there in black and white, a complete refutation of what you stated. It also supports what I have said all along, that it's not the "deflation" which is the problem... again, right there in black and white... It is considered a problem in a modern economy because of the potential of a deflationary spiral! But Deflation causes a REAL INCREASE IN THE VALUE OF MONEY! Inflation causes A DECREASE IN THE VALUE OF MONEY!


I'll accept you apologies now, thank you.

And special thanks to Immie for posting that!

Wow.... congratulations... you can read definitions... too bad you fail to comprehend what they mean to the ECONOMY.

Yes, deflation increases the value of money. Do you believe this translates into a stronger economy? As the definition states... deflation is a PERSISTENT decrease in the price of goods/services. Do you comprehend now why you are wrong moron?

What moron would buy something today (other than necessities) when they can see that prices are continually falling? When they now they will be able to get the same item cheaper in the future?

Because of this, the savings rate tends to go up and spending tends to slow. Does that help the economy ditzie?

No it doesn't.... as people tuck money away, companies sell less goods, in turn lay off more people, which continues the vicious downward spiral in prices. Which leads to a panic, people cutting back all spending but the essentials, more layoffs, higher unemployment etc....

This spiral continues until either we enter a depression or until something is done to end the cycle.

That is why deflation is worse moron. It is harder to stop than inflation. Again, both are bad when they get out of control.

Again... if the value of your dollar is increasing.... what does that do to the value of your DEBT????

If prices are going down across the board.... what is happening to wages? Are they going up or down in a deflationary environment?

Can you answer these simple questions ditzie?

Again... find ONE economist who will take the position that a deflationary cycle is better than inflationary for the economy. Just one.

Again ditzie... as I stated, deflation is not bad when it is due to increases in efficiencies. But that is not what is happening right now ditzie.... and that type of deflation is NOT what leads to a deflationary cycle. What we are experiencing now is exactly what leads to the downward spiral. This is what leads to a depresssion.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Wow.... congratulations... you can read definitions... too bad you fail to comprehend what they mean to the ECONOMY.

Yes, deflation increases the value of money. Do you believe this translates into a stronger economy? As the definition states... deflation is a PERSISTENT decrease in the price of goods/services. Do you comprehend now why you are wrong moron?

What moron would buy something today (other than necessities) when they can see that prices are continually falling? When they now they will be able to get the same item cheaper in the future?

Because of this, the savings rate tends to go up and spending tends to slow. Does that help the economy ditzie?

No it doesn't.... as people tuck money away, companies sell less goods, in turn lay off more people, which continues the vicious downward spiral in prices. Which leads to a panic, people cutting back all spending but the essentials, more layoffs, higher unemployment etc....

This spiral continues until either we enter a depression or until something is done to end the cycle.

That is why deflation is worse moron. It is harder to stop than inflation. Again, both are bad when they get out of control.

Again... if the value of your dollar is increasing.... what does that do to the value of your DEBT????

If prices are going down across the board.... what is happening to wages? Are they going up or down in a deflationary environment?

Can you answer these simple questions ditzie?

Again... find ONE economist who will take the position that a deflationary cycle is better than inflationary for the economy. Just one.

Again ditzie... as I stated, deflation is not bad when it is due to increases in efficiencies. But that is not what is happening right now ditzie.... and that type of deflation is NOT what leads to a deflationary cycle. What we are experiencing now is exactly what leads to the downward spiral. This is what leads to a depresssion.

So you favor inflation to stimulate a "buy now" consumerism spree? That's douchey.

Real people are assisted by falling prices, and getting more for their dollar.

Idiots like you, superfreak, believe gdp is the ultimate measure of a well functioning economy, even if consumers are going into massive debt, because the corporations are making money while actual people are going into debt. Fascists think inflation is good and gdps are meaningful. Fascists like you, superfreak.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Brilliantly well put, Good Luck!

Small minds think alike.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

So you favor inflation to stimulate a "buy now" consumerism spree? That's douchey.

Real people are assisted by falling prices, and getting more for their dollar.

You people are such fucking idiots. You need a shot in the head.

Real people are not assisted by people not buying the stuff they make.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

You people are such fucking idiots. You need a shot in the head.

Real people are not assisted by people not buying the stuff they make.

I said people are assisted when their dollars purchase more. Saving is presented as hysterical option by our friend superfreak. What a pud. Companies hate it when people save, but which side are you on?

 

[Damocles]

I said people are assisted when their dollars purchase more. Saving is presented as hysterical option by our friend superfreak. What a pud. Companies hate it when people save, but which side are you on?

So, do you work for a company and where would that company be if people didn't buy their product?