Jimmy Carter's role in winning the Cold War

[dukkha]

Reagan cannot be held completely accountable for the 1982 recession, but I believe that he made it worse. His program of austerity, budget cuts, and tax cuts for the rich are the last thing a recession needs. Stimulus is what a recession needs.

Yes, hostages every day on the news, and film footage of American helicopters burning in the Iranian desert are what did Carter in, on that we agree. The mythic claim that the Carter economy was an epic and unmitigated disaster does not survive even the most cursory scrutiny of broad economic indicators, like job growth and GDP growth.

His ( Reagan) "program" produced a booming economy.

 

[Centerleftfl]

Good read, thanks for posting it, Cypress. Carter has always been a figure to admire, to me, a model of how a man can use the fame of the Presidency as a force for good in the world. To me he is also a model of Christianity and Christian caring for all no matter what nation, race, or language.

Probably the most INHERENTLY decent human to occupy the WH at least in all the 20th century. We needed the OIL, we wanted the OIL and nothing was ever going to get in its way! The national 'OIL OLIGARCHY' and the REP party saw to it. Screw the country! Reagan enabled all of it for another 2 decades. 9/11, the Iraq war and GLOBAL WARMING.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Cypress,

His honesty and integrity were something America really needed at that time.

Carter was really done in by the Iraq hostage crises and the gas prices shock, but at this point I maintain that is legacy looks much better in hindsight than at the time we were watching American helicopters burn in the Iranian desert.

When you collectively look at his accomplishments and lasting legacy, he did more in four years than many two term presidents do in eight.

It's so true. He is so wise and had such good advice and leadership. It is sad that people didn't want to believe in him, didn't want to conserve energy, wanted to be wasteful. America made a really huge mistake in the 1980 election by voting in Reagan. He was in the pocket of Wall Street. After Wall Street got their way, that's when wealth inequality really took off. And with it, a lot of big problems which are hurting us badly today. Payday loan joints, buy here pay here. All kinds of wealth extraction designed to screw the poor and struggling in order to make the rich richer.

 

[Rune]

Carter spent plenty of money on our vast military industrial complex, and on weapons designed to meet and defeat the Soviets on the field of battle.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the history of the use of moral authority and soft power. You might want to familiarize yourself with Ghandi, MLK, and the Polish Solidarity labor union, et al.

In the meantime, name the military battles we won against the Soviet Union that brought about its demise.

Poor Heff
What a maroon.

 

[Cypress]

Hello Cypress,



It's so true. He is so wise and had such good advice and leadership. It is sad that people didn't want to believe in him, didn't want to conserve energy, wanted to be wasteful. America made a really huge mistake in the 1980 election by voting in Reagan. He was in the pocket of Wall Street. After Wall Street got their way, that's when wealth inequality really took off. And with it, a lot of big problems which are hurting us badly today. Payday loan joints, buy here pay here. All kinds of wealth extraction designed to screw the poor and struggling in order to make the rich richer.

I admit, in 1980 I was a pro-Reagan teenager. I have changed and re-evaluated everything I believed in the early 1980s.
Most people are either too young, or do not clearly remember the revulsion Americans felt about feeling humiliated by Iran, the feeling of seeing American Navy helicopters burning in the Iranian desert, or the disgust of having to sit in a line for 45 minutes to get gasoline.

It really left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Carter was done in by a perfect storm of events, in my opinion. That's why, at the time, I do not think there was a visceral sense that he was actually a consequential president with a more robust lasting legacy than many other presidents.

At this point, we are seeing history re-evaluate Carter in light of his lasting legacy on both the nation and on the office of the presidency. And he is looking substantially better than he did in 1980.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Cypress,

I admit, in 1980 I was a pro-Reagan teenager. I have changed and re-evaluated everything I believed in the early 1980s.
Most people are either too young, or do not clearly remember the revulsion Americans felt about feeling humiliated by Iran, the feeling of seeing American Navy helicopters burning in the Iranian desert, or the disgust of having to sit in a line for 45 minutes to get gasoline.

It really left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Carter was done in by a perfect storm of events, in my opinion. That's why, at the time, I do not think there was a visceral sense that he was actually a consequential president with a more robust lasting legacy than many other presidents.

At this point, we are seeing history re-evaluate Carter in light of his lasting legacy on both the nation and on the office of the presidency. And he is looking substantially better than he did in 1980.

Glad you were able to re-evaluate that. Nice transition.

Well, you know what's coming. Reagan was a disaster for workers and the middle class. And he disgraced us worse with lying about the Iran-Contra Affair than Carter simply taking it on the nose from Iran with the hostage crisis and the failed covert attempt. But the Right Wing Propaganda Machine turned Reagan into a hero. There was no dishonor in what Carter did. Reagan? Can't say that. So how was the right able to rewrite history on that? And worse, is that what we have to look forward to with Trump? Will he be made out to be some kind of economic hero? The economy was already taking off and doing great when Trump took office. But already, Trump fans are giving him all the credit. The economy was already doing very well before the tax cut. Now they all think it was fabulous. Even though it sunsets for working stiffs but is permanent for the super rich. Some con trick!

 

[cawacko]

Hello Cypress,



Glad you were able to re-evaluate that. Nice transition.

Well, you know what's coming. Reagan was a disaster for workers and the middle class. And he disgraced us worse with lying about the Iran-Contra Affair than Carter simply taking it on the nose from Iran with the hostage crisis and the failed covert attempt. But the Right Wing Propaganda Machine turned Reagan into a hero. There was no dishonor in what Carter did. Reagan? Can't say that. So how was the right able to rewrite history on that? And worse, is that what we have to look forward to with Trump? Will he be made out to be some kind of economic hero? The economy was already taking off and doing great when Trump took office. But already, Trump fans are giving him all the credit. The economy was already doing very well before the tax cut. Now they all think it was fabulous. Even though it sunsets for working stiffs but is permanent for the super rich. Some con trick!

No, the economy was not already doing great in 2017. It was an historically bad recovery. Can go into much greater details but that’s not what this thread is about

 

[Cypress]

Hello Cypress,



Glad you were able to re-evaluate that. Nice transition.

Well, you know what's coming. Reagan was a disaster for workers and the middle class. And he disgraced us worse with lying about the Iran-Contra Affair than Carter simply taking it on the nose from Iran with the hostage crisis and the failed covert attempt. But the Right Wing Propaganda Machine turned Reagan into a hero. There was no dishonor in what Carter did. Reagan? Can't say that. So how was the right able to rewrite history on that? And worse, is that what we have to look forward to with Trump? Will he be made out to be some kind of economic hero? The economy was already taking off and doing great when Trump took office. But already, Trump fans are giving him all the credit. The economy was already doing very well before the tax cut. Now they all think it was fabulous. Even though it sunsets for working stiffs but is permanent for the super rich. Some con trick!

I think that is why history is having another look at Carter and Reagan.

Carter - honest, clean, a paragon of presidential character and virtue.
Reagan - a constitutional criminal who flaunted the laws of the nation, and avoided impeachment and possibly prison by his underling providing him cover and plausible deniability.

Regardless of how the Iran hostage situation looked at the time, Carter got all the hostages back alive from Iran without ever caving to Iraq. He did not give them bribes, he did not pay them off, he did not grovel to them, he did not make covert deals with them. He did not give them jack sh*t.

Reagan decided to get our hostages back from Lebanon by caving to terrorists, covertly bribing their sponsors in Iran, and illegally giving high tech American weapons to the Mullahs of Iran.

When it comes to hostages, Carter looks like a paragon of backbone and fortitude compared to Bedtime for Bonzo

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

No, the economy was not already doing great in 2017. It was an historically bad recovery. Can go into much greater details but that’s not what this thread is about

The trajectory of the recovery was long and steady in 2017. It had been since 2011. Trump fans incorrectly give him credit for what Obama did.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



The trajectory of the recovery was long and steady in 2017. It had been since 2011. Trump fans incorrectly give him credit for what Obama did.

It was the worst economic recovery since the depression. That's just a fact.

 

[PoliTalker]

I think that is why history is having another look at Carter and Reagan.

Carter - honest, clean, a paragon of presidential character and virtue.
Reagan - a constitutional criminal who flaunted the laws of the nation, and avoided impeachment and possibly prison by his underling providing him cover and plausible deniability.

Regardless of how the Iran hostage situation looked at the time, Carter got all the hostages back alive from Iran without ever caving to Iraq. He did not give them bribes, he did not pay them off, he did not grovel to them, he did not make covert deals with them. He did not give them jack sh*t.

Reagan decided to get our hostages back from Lebanon by caving to terrorists, covertly bribing their sponsors in Iran, and illegally giving high tech American weapons to the Mullahs of Iran.

When it comes to hostages, Carter looks like a paragon of backbone and fortitude compared to Bedtime for Bonzo

Yeah, but they timed the release and waited until Reagan was inaugurated.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

It was the worst economic recovery since the depression. That's just a fact.

No. Actually that's propaganda. It took longer because it was the deepest economic recession since the depression. We narrowly averted another depression there, you know. We were only days away from a major collapse. Most people have no idea how dire the situation was. There was not going to be a quick recovery from that. Austerity would have made it worse, That was tried in Greece and it failed. Eventually they had to have a Greek bailout, just like America did. And then Greece began to recover, too. It was a simple managed capitalism fact. Greece was worth more with a bailout than it was with austerity.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



No. Actually that's propaganda. It took longer because it was the deepest economic recession since the depression. We narrowly averted another depression there, you know. We were only days away from a major collapse. Most people have no idea how dire the situation was. There was not going to be a quick recovery from that. Austerity would have made it worse, That was tried in Greece and it failed. Eventually they had to have a Greek bailout, just like America did. And then Greece began to recover, too. It was a simple managed capitalism fact. Greece was worth more with a bailout than it was with austerity.

It’s economic fact, not propaganda. You know what is propaganda? The idea that we were days away from a major collapse. And because of that propaganda the government scared the public into believing we needed TARP.

It was never about a quick recovery and the U.S. is not Greece. We’re ten years into the recovery and still haven’t hit 3% GDP growth.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

It’s economic fact, not propaganda. You know what is propaganda? The idea that we were days away from a major collapse.

And because of that propaganda the government scared the public into believing we needed TARP.

I understand you have to believe that, but I hope you understand why I believe otherwise.

It was never about a quick recovery and the U.S. is not Greece. We’re ten years into the recovery and still haven’t hit 3% GDP growth.

So you blame the bad part on Obama and credit all the good to Trump? Does this mean you are buying into what we see as the con?

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



I understand you have to believe that, but I hope you understand why I believe otherwise.



So you blame the bad part on Obama and credit all the good to Trump? Does this mean you are buying into what we see as the con?

Why do I have to believe it’s propaganda that the economy would have collapsed without TARP? Of course the government wants us to think that so we support them bailing out the banks at basically 100 cents on the dollar. You want to complain about inequality yet support TARP?

The Fed has arguably more control over the economy than the president yet why do folks never mention them when discussing who deserves credit and blame for the exonony’s performance?

 

[PoliTalker]

Why do I have to believe it’s propaganda that the economy would have collapsed without TARP? Of course the government wants us to think that so we support them bailing out the banks at basically 100 cents on the dollar. You want to complain about inequality yet support TARP?

The Fed has arguably more control over the economy than the president yet why do folks never mention them when discussing who deserves credit and blame for the exonony’s performance?

The Fed was what told the executive that without the TARP the system was about to collapse. Most people have no idea how much business depends on banking. Large corporations now routinely borrow millions of dollars for very short periods of time, days, even hours. This is their operating money. Without it, they cannot operate, cannot buy supplies and cannot make payrolls. Smaller banks also do this. We were days away from people going to ATM's and not being able to get money, not getting their paychecks. If you don't think that would have caused mass panic then go ahead and assume everything would be OK, that you understand all of the complexities of our financial system and how it's function is crucial to our economy, and how it was not important to bail out these vital elements of our monetary system.

We were about to have a day when debit and credit cards would no longer be accepted. We were very close.

 

[cawacko]

The Fed was what told the executive that without the TARP the system was about to collapse. Most people have no idea how much business depends on banking. Large corporations now routinely borrow millions of dollars for very short periods of time, days, even hours. This is their operating money. Without it, they cannot operate, cannot buy supplies and cannot make payrolls. Smaller banks also do this. We were days away from people going to ATM's and not being able to get money, not getting their paychecks. If you don't think that would have caused mass panic then go ahead and assume everything would be OK, that you understand all of the complexities of our financial system and how it's function is crucial to our economy, and how it was not important to bail out these vital elements of our monetary system.

We were about to have a day when debit and credit cards would no longer be accepted. We were very close.

The economy was not going to collapse. This is not meant as an attack on you personally but your attitude on this is one many people held and it’s why things won’t change. We encouraged the bankers behavior then bailed them out claiming they were too valuable. People couldn’t think outside their current paridym and see the big picture of their actions

 

[PoliTalker]

The economy was not going to collapse. This is not meant as an attack on you personally but your attitude on this is one many people held and it’s why things won’t change. We encouraged the bankers behavior then bailed them out claiming they were too valuable. People couldn’t think outside their current paridym and see the big picture of their actions

Do ya get why the banks bailed out Donald Trump?

They realized his name was worth more than he was.

His businesses that were pulling in money would have been impacted if they broke him. That would have resulted in more losses than it cost them to bail him out.

So that's what they did. They minimized their losses.

He was too big to fail.

And that is very much the same reason for the TARP.

Without it, the damage would have been catastrophic.

People who do not understand that thought they should have just been allowed to fail.

They also had no idea what that really entailed.

 

[cawacko]

Do ya get why the banks bailed out Donald Trump?

They realized his name was worth more than he was.

His businesses that were pulling in money would have been impacted if they broke him. That would have resulted in more losses than it cost them to bail him out.

So that's what they did. They minimized their losses.

He was too big to fail.

And that is very much the same reason for the TARP.

Without it, the damage would have been catastrophic.

People who do not understand that thought they should have just been allowed to fail.

They also had no idea what that really entailed.

The U.S. Government did not step in and say the banks should or should not bail out Trump. That was completely a private transaction.

People who understand global finance (and weren't the ones standing to benefit from being bailed out) know financial markets around the world would have survived without the government stepping in as it did. They also understand moral hazard and recognize the role the government bailing out LTCM in the late '90's had in what occurred up to the financial crash. It was short term thinking and acting and it has long term effects.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

The U.S. Government did not step in and say the banks should or should not bail out Trump. That was completely a private transaction.

And with that comment you show that you totally misunderstood why I used that previous bail out as an example.

People who understand global finance (and weren't the ones standing to benefit from being bailed out) know financial markets around the world would have survived without the government stepping in as it did. They also understand moral hazard and recognize the role the government bailing out LTCM in the late '90's had in what occurred up to the financial crash. It was short term thinking and acting and it has long term effects.

And the world would be just fine without humans, too.