It's not 'Death Panels'...it's individual rights

Dixie said:
Bfoon, I think your argument is absurd on its face. You are claiming, since the Heritage Foundation said the plan could not work without an individual mandate, that this makes the individual mandate a "republican" idea? Okay, but your plan will not ever work without it, so what does that leave you with... abject stupidity? I fail to see where you have an argument here. The Heritage Foundation did not say they favored a health care reform with an individual mandate... that is how you seem to interpret things, but far from reality here. The Heritage Foundation made NO determination on whether or not the system was in need of sweeping reforms, what reforms were appropriate, or whether any of this was constitutional. They simply looked at the plan, and determined it will not work unless there is an individual mandate to purchase insurance. That doesn't mean "it's a republican idea" ...it means, the entire idea of nationalized health care, depends on an individual mandate to buy insurance, and can't work without it.
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Hey Dixie, do you own a calendar? Does 2010 precede 1993 on yours?

HOW can Republicans propose the individual mandate 17 fucking years ago to counter Democrats proposals for a employer mandate, and have it NOT be their idea?
 
CensoredRed said:
I have never understood how a nation of people, most of whom would do the right thing and put a suffering animal out of its misery, have the nerve to say that a suffering person does not have the right to die. It makes no sense to me at all. I have placed in the hands of my loved ones a document with instructions on what I want in terms of care and what I consider quality of life and what I want if the burden of treatment would out-weigh the expected quality of life. I am not leaving it to chance that I could end up like that poor woman Terri Schiavo.
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My Father died in the hospital 15 years ago and the first thing he WAS presented with, upon admission was a living will ..... now called an advance health care directive that covers what actions that should be taken for HIS health in the event that he is no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity, and appoints a person to make such decisions on their behalf, which was me. A living will is one form of advance directive, leaving instructions for treatment. Another form authorizes a specific type of where someone is appointed by the individual to make decisions on their behalf when they are incapacitated.
A hospital social worker came with the documents, sat and explained them to us, and I was their to see that my fathers wishes were clearly known....

THIS WAS 15 YEARS AGO...

Now what has changed in that 15 years that makes a person say, "I have never understood how a nation of people, most of whom would do the right thing and put a suffering animal out of its misery, have the nerve to say that a suffering person does not have the right to die."
OR IS THIS ALL A BULLSHIT non-ISSUE FROM THE LEFT TO DEFEND OBAMACARE IN SOME WAY?
 
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bravo said:
My Father died in the hospital 15 years ago and the first thing he WAS presented with, upon admission was a living will ..... now called an advance health care directive that covers what actions that should be taken for HIS health in the event that he is no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity, and appoints a person to make such decisions on their behalf, which was me. A living will is one form of advance directive, leaving instructions for treatment. Another form authorizes a specific type of where someone is appointed by the individual to make decisions on their behalf when they are incapacitated.
A hospital social worker came with the documents, sat and explained them to us, and I was their to see that my fathers wishes were clearly known....

THIS WAS 15 YEARS AGO...

Now what has changed in that 15 years that makes a person say, "I have never understood how a nation of people, most of whom would do the right thing and put a suffering animal out of its misery, have the nerve to say that a suffering person does not have the right to die."
OR IS THIS ALL A BULLSHIT non-ISSUE FROM THE LEFT TO DEFEND OBAMACARE IN SOME WAY?
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This so-called "bullshit" issue is far from bullshit. A person may refuse procedures that may lengthen their life by a few days or weeks but do they have the right to obtain medication to relieve their suffering if that medication may shorten their life by a few days or weeks?

It's not unusual for certain types of cancer to be so painful as to be necessary to drug a person to a degree their vital functions slow to the point it contributes to an earlier death.

HCR. Health Care Reform. "Reform" is the key word. There can't be true medical reform when the last step in medical care, that being the comfort of the patient at the end time, is governed by some supernatural belief a God will determine the time of death. That philosophy is no different than in the 1600s when anesthetics were known but some people believed it was God's will for the person to suffer.
 
PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'Death panels'
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PolitiFact * PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'Death panels'
 
SM, I decided to help you out by creating a Living Will just for you:


LIVING WILL
I, DamnYankee, of Yadkinhell NC, being of semisound mind, do hereby willfully and voluntarily make known my desire that my life not be prolonged under any of the following conditions, and do hereby further declare:
1. If I should, at any time, catch a cold or have the sniffle, or by any accident or injury, and be determined by anyone handy to be an asshole, I direct that such measures and procedures be used to end my life and that I be permitted to die naturally or painfully.
2. In the event of my inability to give directions or my protests regarding the application of life-sustaining procedures or the use of "heroic measures", it is my intention that this directive shall be honored by anyone with a firearm or sufficiently large knife as my final expression of my right to refuse medical and surgical treatment, and my acceptance of the consequences of such refusal.
3. I am mentally, emotionally and legally competent to make this directive (well…mostly) and I fully understand its import.
4. I revoke the right to revoke this directive at any time.
5. This directive shall remain in force until revoked.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereto set my hand and seal this _____ day of __________, 20___.
Signed: __________
Declaration of Witnesses
The declarant is personally known to me and I believe him to be of sound mind and emotionally and legally competent to make the herein contined Directive to Physicians. I am not related to the declarant by blood or marriage, nor would I be entitled to any portion of the declarant's estate upon his decease, nor am I an attending physician of the declarant, nor an employee of the attending physician, nor an employee of a health care facility in which the declarant is a patient, nor a patient in a health care facility in which the declarant is a patient, nor am I a person who has any claim against any portion of the estate of the declarant upon his death.
Signed: _____________
-----
 
bravo said:
My Father died in the hospital 15 years ago and the first thing he WAS presented with, upon admission was a living will ..... now called an advance health care directive that covers what actions that should be taken for HIS health in the event that he is no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity, and appoints a person to make such decisions on their behalf, which was me. A living will is one form of advance directive, leaving instructions for treatment. Another form authorizes a specific type of where someone is appointed by the individual to make decisions on their behalf when they are incapacitated.
A hospital social worker came with the documents, sat and explained them to us, and I was their to see that my fathers wishes were clearly known....

THIS WAS 15 YEARS AGO...

Now what has changed in that 15 years that makes a person say, "I have never understood how a nation of people, most of whom would do the right thing and put a suffering animal out of its misery, have the nerve to say that a suffering person does not have the right to die."
OR IS THIS ALL A BULLSHIT non-ISSUE FROM THE LEFT TO DEFEND OBAMACARE IN SOME WAY?
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That is indeed standard practice at most hospitals. But the problem is that many people are taken to the hospital in an emergency and are unable to fill out the forms. It only takes one family member objecting and the hospital will not "unplug" the patient without legal paperwork.
 
If more sick people just choose to end their lives it would save the government a lot of money. Everyone who is terminally ill or severly injured/crippled just ended their lives the national debt would disappear and health insurance would get a lot cheapier. Killing people is the solution to every problem.
 
Bfgrn said:
Why am I not surprised you don't even read my posts. It might put a small dent in your ignorance and the overwhelming fear that controls your life. Your screen name is so appropriate.

The Individual Mandate is a Republican/conservative idea whose genesis was the Heritage Foundation. The purpose of requiring individuals to buy insurance is based on personal responsibility to prevent what they called 'free riders'... people like YOU who are either too stupid, self centered or fearful to buy insurance, and when you get sick or hurt you sponge off the rest of us.

Every person who has health insurance pays over $1,000 per year to cover the cost of people like you, the welfare queens of health care who receive medical care for free and stick the rest of us with THEIR bill.

If you can be well without health, you may be happy without virtue.
Edmund Burke
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Right. It's a fascist republican idea. Are you a fascist corporatist republican now?
 
apple0154 said:
This so-called "bullshit" issue is far from bullshit. A person may refuse procedures that may lengthen their life by a few days or weeks but do they have the right to obtain medication to relieve their suffering if that medication may shorten their life by a few days or weeks?

It's not unusual for certain types of cancer to be so painful as to be necessary to drug a person to a degree their vital functions slow to the point it contributes to an earlier death.

HCR. Health Care Reform. "Reform" is the key word. There can't be true medical reform when the last step in medical care, that being the comfort of the patient at the end time, is governed by some supernatural belief a God will determine the time of death. That philosophy is no different than in the 1600s when anesthetics were known but some people believed it was God's will for the person to suffer.
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So what YOU want legalized is "assisted suicide"....?
Then come right out an say so, and stop with the bullshit of "advance health care directive".....concerning what health care procedures are to be administered.....

If one refuses the operation, medicine, or whateever, they have every right to that and always have had that right....

or a family member will make that decision....

I sure as hell don't want YOU or those that think the same moronic shit as you to sit on any panel and make those decisions for me...

And nature will determine the time of death....not you or some other group....
 
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bravo said:
So what YOU want legalized is "assisted suicide"....?
Then come right out an say so, and stop with the bullshit of "advance health care directive".....concerning what health care procedures are to be administered.....

If one refuses the operation, medicine, or whateever, they have every right to that and always have had that right....

or a family member will make that decision....

I sure as hell don't want YOU or those that think the same moronic shit as you to sit on any panel and make those decisions for me...

And nature will determine the time of death....not you or some other group....
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Did I miss the post where someone talked about forcing suicide on unwilling patients and families?

No one is saying that people whould be killed for being ill. (at least no one is saying it seriously)
 
WinterBorn said:
That is indeed standard practice at most hospitals. But the problem is that many people are taken to the hospital in an emergency and are unable to fill out the forms. It only takes one family member objecting and the hospital will not "unplug" the patient without legal paperwork.
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The point is, ITS THE FAMILIES OR THE PATIENTS DECISION TO MAKE... not some disinterested or impartial panel of strangers....because it plain, there is no such thing as a disinterested or impartial panel...

hotdog said:
If more sick people just choose to end their lives it would save the government a lot of money. Everyone who is terminally ill or severly injured/crippled just ended their lives the national debt would disappear and health insurance would get a lot cheapier. Killing people is the solution to every problem.
Click to expand...

Killing people is always cheaper if its the old and terminally ill .... it only cost more to kill a murdered on death row with a 25 cent bullet .....thats the Logic of the pinhead herd.....

Apple the Asshole's solution to just about everything, including disability, sickness, hunger, abuse, the unloved.....etc....
 
bravo said:
The point is, ITS THE FAMILIES OR THE PATIENTS DECISION TO MAKE... not some disinterested or impartial panel of strangers....because it plain, there is no such thing as a disinterested or impartial panel...



Killing people is always cheaper if its the old and terminally ill .... it only cost more to kill a murdered on death row with a 25 cent bullet .....thats the Logic of the pinhead herd.....

Apple the Asshole's solution to just about everything, including disability, sickness, hunger, abuse, the unloved.....etc....
Click to expand...

Did your mommy read the OP to you, or do you just emote without prompting?
 
WinterBorn said:
Did I miss the post where someone talked about forcing suicide on unwilling patients and families?

No one is saying that people whould be killed for being ill. (at least no one is saying it seriously)
Click to expand...
This so-called "bullshit" issue is far from bullshit. A person may refuse procedures that may lengthen their life by a few days or weeks but do they have the right to obtain medication to relieve their suffering if that medication may shorten their life by a few days or weeks?

It's not unusual for certain types of cancer to be so painful as to be necessary to drug a person to a degree their vital functions slow to the point it contributes to an earlier death.

HCR. Health Care Reform. "Reform" is the key word. There can't be true medical reform when the last step in medical care, that being the comfort of the patient at the end time, is governed by some supernatural belief a God will determine the time of death. That philosophy is no different than in the 1600s when anesthetics were known but some people believed it was God's will for the person to suffer. ........Apple....
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"There can't be true medical reform when the last step in medical care, that being the comfort of the patient at the end time, is governed by some supernatural belief a God will determine the time of death. "

What Apple is saying is that someone else, maybe him, or his "panel" is better equipped to decide when a patient should die....not "nature" or dare is say........GOD, to those that believe in one.....

You have to have debated Apple on similar issues to know exactly what hes driving at.....
 
bravo said:
What Apple is saying is that someone else, maybe him, or his "panel" is better equipped to decide when a patient should die....not "nature" or dare is say........GOD, to those that believe in one.....

You have to have debated Apple on similar issues to know exactly what hes driving at.....
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I don't see Apple saying that at all. I see Apple making the very valid point that this country's medical system avoids and ignores the final stages of terminal illnesses. People are allowed to spend their last days in absolute agony because teh Drs follow the same regulations for administering their pain meds that they do in patients who are expected to recover.

Is a dying patient really worried about developing an addiction? Is there really a need to not allow a patient access to enough pain meds to allow them to be comfortable?
 
Dixie said:
That's why we have so many wealthy Americans going to those countries for their surgeries and stuff, right???
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No. It's why why so many Americans die because they wait till a treatable chronic problem becomes a hard to treat acute one. It's also why medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in our nation.
 
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bravo said:
My Father died in the hospital 15 years ago and the first thing he WAS presented with, upon admission was a living will ..... now called an advance health care directive that covers what actions that should be taken for HIS health in the event that he is no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity, and appoints a person to make such decisions on their behalf, which was me. A living will is one form of advance directive, leaving instructions for treatment. Another form authorizes a specific type of where someone is appointed by the individual to make decisions on their behalf when they are incapacitated.
A hospital social worker came with the documents, sat and explained them to us, and I was their to see that my fathers wishes were clearly known....

THIS WAS 15 YEARS AGO...

Now what has changed in that 15 years that makes a person say, "I have never understood how a nation of people, most of whom would do the right thing and put a suffering animal out of its misery, have the nerve to say that a suffering person does not have the right to die."
OR IS THIS ALL A BULLSHIT non-ISSUE FROM THE LEFT TO DEFEND OBAMACARE IN SOME WAY?
Click to expand...
Because Bravo, that's not a standardized practice across the nation though it should be and I applaud that hospital for being proactive.
 
WinterBorn said:
SM, I decided to help you out by creating a Living Will just for you:


LIVING WILL
I, DamnYankee, of Yadkinhell NC, being of semisound mind, do hereby willfully and voluntarily make known my desire that my life not be prolonged under any of the following conditions, and do hereby further declare:
1. If I should, at any time, catch a cold or have the sniffle, or by any accident or injury, and be determined by anyone handy to be an asshole, I direct that such measures and procedures be used to end my life and that I be permitted to die naturally or painfully.
2. In the event of my inability to give directions or my protests regarding the application of life-sustaining procedures or the use of "heroic measures", it is my intention that this directive shall be honored by anyone with a firearm or sufficiently large knife as my final expression of my right to refuse medical and surgical treatment, and my acceptance of the consequences of such refusal.
3. I am mentally, emotionally and legally competent to make this directive (well…mostly) and I fully understand its import.
4. I revoke the right to revoke this directive at any time.
5. This directive shall remain in force until revoked.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereto set my hand and seal this _____ day of __________, 20___.
Signed: __________
Declaration of Witnesses
The declarant is personally known to me and I believe him to be of sound mind and emotionally and legally competent to make the herein contined Directive to Physicians. I am not related to the declarant by blood or marriage, nor would I be entitled to any portion of the declarant's estate upon his decease, nor am I an attending physician of the declarant, nor an employee of the attending physician, nor an employee of a health care facility in which the declarant is a patient, nor a patient in a health care facility in which the declarant is a patient, nor am I a person who has any claim against any portion of the estate of the declarant upon his death.
Signed: _____________
-----
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No one who knows SM could honestly make that statement.
 
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apple0154 said:
Perhaps it should be noted an individual mandate to buy insurance is not necessary for government medical to work. One Province in Canada does not require anyone to buy anything.
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Well, the Heritage Foundation found that in THIS province (The United States of America) it won't work and can't work unless there is an individual mandate to buy insurance. So, who to believe...Apple or the Heritage Foundation? Hmmm?

Also... Bfoon, I won't bother quoting you, but I love the way you cleverly switch from an individual mandate to employer mandate, and hope no one noticed. I think these are two distinctly different ideas and suggestions. In the current version of health care reform (aka: Obamacare) The Republicans didn't propose anything, they weren't allowed to. You'll recall the president scolding John McCain... "The elections are over, John!" Democrats rammed a 2,000 page bill down our throats without one single solitary republican vote, and nothing in the damn thing was the idea of a republican. To think you have the fucking nerve to come here now and just outright LIE about it, is astonishing, do you really think people are THAT fucking stupid? ....excuse me...besides NigelTufnel... do you think people are THAT stupid??
 
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