“It’s just more and more lanes’: the Texan revolt against giant new highways”

[archives]

I'm not an expert on Texas. What I do know is they have lots of land and continue to build further North in the DFW area to meet their massive population growth. It's not any different than what we did in California. Even today, NIMBYs here stop dense urban development which only leads to more sprawl.

Just saying they shouldn't build more highways doesn't tell the whole story. It's an incomplete argument.

Never said it did, nor that they should stop building highways, but doing so hoping to address transportation problems often leads to worsening the problem

And if the area is experiencing massive rapid growth, mass transit for the future is a better option

 

[cawacko]

Never said it did, nor that they should stop building highways, but doing so hoping to address transportation problems often leads to worsening the problem

And if the area is experiencing massive rapid growth, mass transit for the future is a better option

Do you know that they aren't building mass transit?

 

[archives]

Do you know that they aren't building mass transit?

Which is the problem

Where I live, we have had mass transit, was here long before I arrived, and there has been substantial suburban growth, they didn't build new highways to service the growth, they extended the mass transit, so today no one talks about additional lanes on the existing highways, in fact, they are actually removing some of the highways

 

[cawacko]

Which is the problem

Where I live, we have had mass transit, was here long before I arrived, and there has been substantial suburban growth, they didn't build new highways to service the growth, they extended the mass transit, so today no one talks about additional lanes on the existing highways, in fact, they are actually removing some of the highways

You didn't answer the question. You're talking about a place you've said you've never visited. So you don't know that they aren't building mass transit. I know there had been talk of a bullet train between Houston and Dallas. No idea where that stands.

Look, I get it. You're a liberal and don't care for Texas just as people on the right don't like California. But you have no info on what they are actually doing there short of some liberal British tabloid article which doesn't begin to tell even near the full story.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Of course they won't come as long as they have additional lanes, but as the topic post pointed out, more people will drive in the improved conditions, leading to more traffic and eliminating any initial benefit, building more roads only leads to more cars

No, they'll sit in traffic rather than on a light rail car or bus. Why? I can think of two big reasons right off:

Massively more safe.
Even with traffic, it's still faster and more convenient.

Building more roads doesn't lead to more cars. It leads to fewer cars per mile of road. The amount of cars doesn't change because roads get built. The problem usually is that in areas of growth, roads take far longer to expand than the growth in population and cars does.

Here in Phoenix, the latest light fail expansion is northwards, then to the west. This stretch of new track goes from an area known as "Sunnyslope" (aka Meth Central), along Dunlap Road which in that section is mostly empty office buildings, then across I 17 into a now closed mall called "Metrocenter." The area is marked by closed restaurants, closed office buildings, and closed hotels.

The office space that's hot right now is 10 to 20 miles north of that location and there are new restaurants and hotels going up next to the office buildings. The companies moving in are national ones and their management likes that there's a regional airport (Deer Valley) right in the middle of the area. That means they can fly in on a charter or private jet and go to their company offices in a short hop from the airport.

Taiwan Semi-Conductor is building a multi-billion dollar campus and factory nearby. I've been told they'll employ about 5,000 people initially, mostly high paying jobs in engineering, science, and manufacturing. Just did a rewire on a house that one of their engineers got for a relative steal. $575,000 in an older golf course neighborhood about a mile from my current house. I'm moving to an upscale area called "Arrowhead" in Peoria about 10 miles from my current address. It's the Scottsdale (aka Snobsdale) of the West valley.
My current neighborhood is becoming a victim of Joke's policy to force people into renting.

 

[Granule]

I'm not "seething" over anything, but sounds like you are, and if I am not mistaken, California has begun to recognize the problem

I see. You're just a concerned non resident.

That still doesn't explain your omission of California. Could it be because Cal is a blue state and the other two are red?

 

[Lionfish]

I grew up here graduating HS in 1969. I live in a suburb of Dallas 15 miles from downtown Dallas. Most people living in my town, commuted back an forth from living here and commuting to Downtown to work.

But today, millions of people working in Dallas or Fort Worth commute in from all the counties surrounding Dallas or Fort Worth- some as far away as 2 or 3 counties away.

But then the gasoline went up- AND NOW THESES PEOPLE ARE BITCHING THE LOUDEST!

Fuck them- work in the county you live and pay taxes in and stop polluting the air here, stalling up all the freeways making everyone who lives here late for work, AND WASTING GASOLINE THAT IS IN SHORT SUPPLY NOW- THEY SAY!

Hell, the people who actually live in Dallas County or Tarrant County could find good jobs here without having to drive to the suburbs just to get jobs- because the Whiteflighters are sitting on them like old HENS- and won't give them up and refuse to work in the counties where they live.

Denton and Collin Counties do not even have to pay a Hospital tax because they do not have County Hospitals- So they enjoy taxes that are thousands of dollars less in real estate taxes- BUT YET THEY SEND ALL OF THEIR poor PEOPLE DOWN TO PARKLAND HOSPITAL or John Peter Smith hospital of FT. Worth WHEN THEY NEED A HOSPITAL!

It is not fair to the people of Dallas or Fort Worth- WHO ACTUALLY PAY TAXES HERE!

Little lizard, why has fuel gone up?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Of course they won't come as long as they have additional lanes, but as the topic post pointed out, more people will drive in the improved conditions, leading to more traffic and eliminating any initial benefit, building more roads only leads to more cars

The alternative is to try and force people into public transportation against their will. The reason the light rail and bus services in the Phoenix metro area go badly underutilized is because they are:

Slow and inefficient for time management
They are less safe than private transportation (but not so much as in blue states coddling criminals)
They don't go where you need to go

So, the situation is either build roads and cater to people's demands or build mass transit and then impose authoritarian and totalitarian controls on things to make them use it.

On the latter, only those that can't avoid those controls (eg., the poor and working class) end up forced onto them. The Rich and even well-off accept the cost of the alternatives and continue to use them not mass transit.

This is a situation where roads are more egalitarian and equal than mass transit ever will be.

 

[Callinectes]

Every time Texas receives Federal Money Grated for Highways- THE FUCKING TRUMPTARDED REPUBLICAN TEXAS GOVERNORs just builds more EXPRESS Toll LANES to propel the WHite Flighters from their McMansion suburban neighborhoods past the already 6 lanes of everybody else.

These are the only Highway improvements we have seen in DFW in the last 20 years. JUST MORE TOLL EXPRESS LANES for the RICH racists who choose to live in the Counties north because they refuse to live in a town with minorities- so 100's of thousands of WHite People that drive 50 miles one way to work everyday in the express lanes in their huge pickem'up trucks that only get 6 miles to the gallon. It is a huge waste of federal money, a waste of gasoline, and contributes to miles and miles of unnecessary traffic in DFW every day.

Someone should say something about this!

Even our highway system is all about the WHITE FLIGHTERS!

Hey, maybe if you communazis stayed put in your blue shitholes, we in Texas and Florida wouldn't have to build more roads to accommodate you twinklepuffs. At least do us the courtesy of leaving your jackass politics in the shitter when you come here. Learn a little about your new homes. And how are those millions of fresh illegal aliens supposed to get to their slave labor jobs without roads for the millions of 30 and 40 year old junk cars they keep on the roads?

 

[Lightbringer]

“Texas, with its wide-laned roads and supersized highways, seems like an unlikely place for a rebellion against the supremacy of American car culture”

“But last week a band of residents from across Texas descended upon the state’s department of transportation (DoT) to voice fury over new highway expansions that are set to displace thousands of people and raze hundreds of businesses, schools and churches. Meanwhile, the state is actively crushing local plans to encourage more cycling and walking as an alternative to driving”

“It’s just plain Jane boring lanes, more and more lanes, said Fabian Ramirez, a structural engineer. There’s no train, there’s no bus, there’s no anything that supports mass transportation. It doesn’t exist. They [Texas DoT] love concrete. I mean, geez. I love building stuff, but I also have a moral compass.”

“Ron Nirenberg, San Antonio’s mayor, accused the state of “1950s thinking” and a “religious fascination” with highway expansions”

“Some states have started to recognize studies that show if you sow more asphalt you simply reap more traffic. This is what economists call “induced demand”, that building more roads only leads to more cars. This concept has shown that the amount of added road capacity in US cities has caused a lockstep increase in the number of miles driven. Essentially, wider highways may provide some temporary respite to congestion, but this just encourages more people to drive in the “improved” conditions, leading to more traffic and eliminating any initial benefit.

“Texas is pushing ahead with an unprecedented blitz of new road space for cars. The frenzy of road building is championed by Greg Abbott”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...way-expansions-project-displacements-protests

Never been to Texas, and probably never will, but I have been often to Florida, and it is pretty similar, every time I’ve passed thru Orlando or Tampa, they are putting in another lane, and don’t ever get caught at a red light in Florida, you grow old waiting

Amazing how in the 21st Century some are still locked in the 1950’s, then again, it is Texas, them good ole boys aren’t go to give up their F250 Duallies to ride on a train

Texas and Florida aren't really similar. The issue in Texas is that everyone moving there seems to have settled near the I-35 corridor. The expansion in Texas is on the I-35 corridor for the most part and it's because of truck freight not being able to move with all of the new people in the way on the highways. Florida doesn't have that problem, it's actually a dead zone for freight.

 

[ExpressLane]

“Texas, with its wide-laned roads and supersized highways, seems like an unlikely place for a rebellion against the supremacy of American car culture”

“But last week a band of residents from across Texas descended upon the state’s department of transportation (DoT) to voice fury over new highway expansions that are set to displace thousands of people and raze hundreds of businesses, schools and churches. Meanwhile, the state is actively crushing local plans to encourage more cycling and walking as an alternative to driving”

“It’s just plain Jane boring lanes, more and more lanes, said Fabian Ramirez, a structural engineer. There’s no train, there’s no bus, there’s no anything that supports mass transportation. It doesn’t exist. They [Texas DoT] love concrete. I mean, geez. I love building stuff, but I also have a moral compass.”

“Ron Nirenberg, San Antonio’s mayor, accused the state of “1950s thinking” and a “religious fascination” with highway expansions”

“Some states have started to recognize studies that show if you sow more asphalt you simply reap more traffic. This is what economists call “induced demand”, that building more roads only leads to more cars. This concept has shown that the amount of added road capacity in US cities has caused a lockstep increase in the number of miles driven. Essentially, wider highways may provide some temporary respite to congestion, but this just encourages more people to drive in the “improved” conditions, leading to more traffic and eliminating any initial benefit.

“Texas is pushing ahead with an unprecedented blitz of new road space for cars. The frenzy of road building is championed by Greg Abbott”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...way-expansions-project-displacements-protests

Never been to Texas, and probably never will, but I have been often to Florida, and it is pretty similar, every time I’ve passed thru Orlando or Tampa, they are putting in another lane, and don’t ever get caught at a red light in Florida, you grow old waiting

Amazing how in the 21st Century some are still locked in the 1950’s, then again, it is Texas, them good ole boys aren’t go to give up their F250 Duallies to ride on a train

Texas is too spread out to make trains very useful. You have to have a car to live here.

 

[Walt]

“Texas, with its wide-laned roads and supersized highways, seems like an unlikely place for a rebellion against the supremacy of American car culture”

“But last week a band of residents from across Texas descended upon the state’s department of transportation (DoT) to voice fury over new highway expansions that are set to displace thousands of people and raze hundreds of businesses, schools and churches. Meanwhile, the state is actively crushing local plans to encourage more cycling and walking as an alternative to driving”

“It’s just plain Jane boring lanes, more and more lanes, said Fabian Ramirez, a structural engineer. There’s no train, there’s no bus, there’s no anything that supports mass transportation. It doesn’t exist. They [Texas DoT] love concrete. I mean, geez. I love building stuff, but I also have a moral compass.”

“Ron Nirenberg, San Antonio’s mayor, accused the state of “1950s thinking” and a “religious fascination” with highway expansions”

“Some states have started to recognize studies that show if you sow more asphalt you simply reap more traffic. This is what economists call “induced demand”, that building more roads only leads to more cars. This concept has shown that the amount of added road capacity in US cities has caused a lockstep increase in the number of miles driven. Essentially, wider highways may provide some temporary respite to congestion, but this just encourages more people to drive in the “improved” conditions, leading to more traffic and eliminating any initial benefit.

“Texas is pushing ahead with an unprecedented blitz of new road space for cars. The frenzy of road building is championed by Greg Abbott”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...way-expansions-project-displacements-protests

Never been to Texas, and probably never will, but I have been often to Florida, and it is pretty similar, every time I’ve passed thru Orlando or Tampa, they are putting in another lane, and don’t ever get caught at a red light in Florida, you grow old waiting

Amazing how in the 21st Century some are still locked in the 1950’s, then again, it is Texas, them good ole boys aren’t go to give up their F250 Duallies to ride on a train

The governments in Texas hate sidewalks. It is a way to control people. If your 12 year old son wants to visit his friend down the street, the only safe way to get there is by being driven.

Of all the reasons I would never live in Texas, that is the most definite to me.

 

[Walt]

In areas like DFW, that is nearly impossible to achieve...........that yellow line is the overlay of the state of Connecticutt

And yet Connecticut was able to achieve some of that. The Netherlands (even bigger) was able to achieve that.

 

[Walt]

Texas is too spread out to make trains very useful. You have to have a car to live here.

So what happens if you become old, and are no longer able to drive?

 

[ExpressLane]

Every time Texas receives Federal Money Grated for Highways- THE FUCKING TRUMPTARDED REPUBLICAN TEXAS GOVERNORs just builds more EXPRESS Toll LANES to propel the WHite Flighters from their McMansion suburban neighborhoods past the already 6 lanes of everybody else.

These are the only Highway improvements we have seen in DFW in the last 20 years. JUST MORE TOLL EXPRESS LANES for the RICH racists who choose to live in the Counties north because they refuse to live in a town with minorities- so 100's of thousands of WHite People that drive 50 miles one way to work everyday in the express lanes in their huge pickem'up trucks that only get 6 miles to the gallon. It is a huge waste of federal money, a waste of gasoline, and contributes to miles and miles of unnecessary traffic in DFW every day.

Someone should say something about this!

Even our highway system is all about the WHITE FLIGHTERS!

They build express lanes to social engineer and to encourage multi-passenger cars. Also they build express lanes that are paid for by tolls and those lanes reduce the loads on non toll roads.

 

[ExpressLane]

So what happens if you become old, and are no longer able to drive?

Family takes care of you . My aunt drove into her 90's and was very vital. She moved to a retirement center and was very popular because she had wheels.

 

[Walt]

Family takes care of you . My aunt drove into her 90's and was very vital. She moved to a retirement center and was very popular because she had wheels.

What happens if you do not have family, or they do not want to take care of you?

 

[ExpressLane]

What happens if you do not have family, or they do not want to take care of you?

Move to a retirement home that has a resident van. Amazon, Uber, Grub Hub, Kroger delivery etc. or be nicer to your family so they take care of your transportation. I had a great aunt that my dad shared taking to doctor and shopping with his brothers. We took her grocery shopping once a week when we went grocery shopping. My dad's brother took her to the doctor when needed.

 

[Walt]

Move to a retirement home that has a resident van.

So if you cannot drive, you cannot live independently? There are plenty of people with health problems that are not old enough to be in a retirement home. Will they have to live in a halfway house for life? Or people who have an injury that will prevent them from driving for a little while? Do they have to go to one of your prisons for the duration?

 

[Lightbringer]

So if you cannot drive, you cannot live independently? There are plenty of people with health problems that are not old enough to be in a retirement home. Will they have to live in a halfway house for life? Or people who have an injury that will prevent them from driving for a little while? Do they have to go to one of your prisons for the duration?

How is it any different anywhere else? Detroit is much the same.