The chaos and misery is not a bug in America Empire operations, it is a feature, it is on purpose.No, I was trying to point out to Gardner that the fact that there are various middle east factions fighting each other isn't a coincidence at all- it's planned. Some stories that strongly hint at this:
Israeli Mossad named as funder of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation - The Grayzone
Top Israeli lawmakers have accused their government of laundering massive sums through a shadowy network of US humanitarian and mercenary orgs. The weaponized aid initiative is the linchpin of Israel’s plan to ethnically cleanse northern Gaza by forcing the starving population into concentration...thegrayzone.com
Uber CEO plots ‘opening up’ of Iran with Israeli-tied monarchist opposition group - The Grayzone
A livestreamed Iranian royalist chat revealed a network of foreign-educated elites plotting to plunder Iran's economy after realizing their dream of regime change. The CEO of Uber, Dara Khosrowshahi, has drawn criticism following his participation in an online discussion workshopping ways to...
Leaked files show secret UK Syria project boosted Jolani’s HTS - The Grayzone
In the name of building a “moderate opposition,” London established a social service and media network in areas controlled by HTS, benefitting the group it branded as a dangerous Al Qaeda affiliate. Leaked British intelligence files reviewed by The Grayzone raise grave questions about whether...
Thousands reported killed in Syria as HTS-allied forces attack, execute Alawites - The Grayzone
Editor's note: Sectarian Sunni forces linked to the new HTS-led government of Syria have massacred over 1300 Alawites in the past week, according to a conservative estimate. The Grayzone has spoken to staff from a Western aid organization currently on the ground in Syria who say the death toll...
Israel's war with several middle eastern countries
- Thread starter Scott
- Start date
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Egypt has Gaza blockaded too. As for genocide, what specifics are you citing?I certainliy haven't heard of any gas chambers in Israel, but as to genocide, there's a growing consensus that that's exactly what Israel is doing:
Even Once Reluctant Scholars Now Agree on Israel's Gaza Assault: It's a Genocide | Common Dreams
Is Israel committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Leading international experts say yes, with the majority of their peers in academia concurring. The debate is shifting as the death toll rises and humanitarian aid is blocked. Are you ready to confront the harsh reality of what's...www.commondreams.org
Insult never further a discussion- instead, they distract from it. I suspect that's your goal, though perhaps an unconscious one.
Scott
Verified User
Egypt has Gaza blockaded too.I certainliy haven't heard of any gas chambers in Israel, but as to genocide, there's a growing consensus that that's exactly what Israel is doing:
Even Once Reluctant Scholars Now Agree on Israel's Gaza Assault: It's a Genocide | Common Dreams
Is Israel committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Leading international experts say yes, with the majority of their peers in academia concurring. The debate is shifting as the death toll rises and humanitarian aid is blocked. Are you ready to confront the harsh reality of what's...
Yes, it does, but there's a fundamental difference between Egypt and Israel. Israel is the primary -cause- of the devastiation and misery in Gaza. Egypt, on the other hand, just doesn't want to have to deal with anymore of the fallout. They've been getting Palestinian refugees since 1948, most of which apparently came through during the current Gaza war:
**
Estimates of the size of the Palestinian population in Egypt range from 50,245 to 110,000.
During the Gaza war, it is estimated by the Palestinian Authority that at least 115,000 Palestinians from Gaza crossed into Egypt.
**
Source:
Palestinians in Egypt - Wikipedia
From the common dreams article I linked to previously:
**
Only a tiny number of progressive Democratic lawmakers in the U.S. have used the word "genocide" to describe Israel's relentless bombardment of Gaza, and the U.S. public divided, with less than 40% of Americans saying last year that the term described the Israel Defense Forces' bombing of hospitals, schools, refugee camps, and other civilian infrastructure.
But for seven leading international experts on genocide, the question is not controversial—even for those who previously rejected the label.
The seven experts were interviewed Wednesday by NRC, a newspaper in the Netherlands, and were unequivocal: Not only have they all come to believe—some earlier than others—that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, but the vast majority of their peers in academia concur.
"Can I name someone whose work I respect who doesn't consider it genocide?" said Raz Segal, an Israeli genocide researcher at Stockton University in New Jersey. "No."
[snip]
When it comes to defining the last 19 months in Gaza as a genocide, reported the newspaper, "even cautious voices have changed."
Israeli scholar Shmuel Lederman of Open University of Israel "opposed the genocide label" until Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government flouted the International Court of Justice's January 2024 order to prevent genocide by allowing emergency aid into Gaza and halting top officials "incendiary language on Palestinians." Israeli leaders have called Palestinians "human animals" and "Amalek"—an ancient enemy in the Hebrew Bible who Israelites were commanded to exterminate.
Lederman also began to see his government as genocidal after the Israel Defense Forces seized control of the Rafah crossing last year, cutting off the only humanitarian aid route as international experts warned famine was imminent, and as analysts warned the true death toll in Gaza could ultimately be close to 200,000.
"For me personally, the combination of this and the continued destruction of Gaza made the turn from harsh criticism of the crimes Israel is committing in Gaza and warnings that we are getting close to that place, to the perception that the cumulative effect of what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocidal in every sense," said Lederman on the social media platform X on Thursday. "I think the second half of 2024 is the point at which a consensus emerged among genocide researchers (as well as the human rights community) that this was genocide. Those who may have still had doubts—I estimate that they have dissipated following Israel's actions since the cease-fire was broken."
Since March, when Israel reimposed a total blockade on humanitarian aid and broke a temporary cease-fire, nearly 3,000 Palestinians have been killed in bombings, and nearly 250,000 people are now facing "extreme deprivation of food," according to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification.
Melanie O'Brien, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, told NRC that Israel's deliberate blockade on "food, water, shelter, and sanitation" convinced her the Netanyahu government was carrying out a genocide, while Segal pointed to "openly genocidal statements" by Israeli leaders.
"But for all it is about the sum of what would apply separately as 'ordinary' war crimes," NRC reported. "The picture as a whole makes it a genocide. That is how the term is meant, says [British professor Martin] Shaw: 'holistic.'"
[snip]
NRC noted that the Western media and political debates have been consumed with "misunderstandings and simplifications."
Those who continue defending Israel's actions insist that "it is a military war to destroy Hamas, there is no clear eradication plan, not all Gazans have been killed, it does not look like the Holocaust, the judge has not yet ruled."
As historian Rutger Bregman said on X Thursday, the scholars interviews by NRC make clear: "Genocide is a process, it's not a binary switch. And it's not about matching the Holocaust."
**
Full article:
Even Once Reluctant Scholars Now Agree on Israel's Gaza Assault: It's a Genocide | Common Dreams
Is Israel committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Leading international experts say yes, with the majority of their peers in academia concurring. The debate is shifting as the death toll rises and humanitarian aid is blocked. Are you ready to confront the harsh reality of what's...
www.commondreams.org
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
he's the distractor in chief.I certainliy haven't heard of any gas chambers in Israel, but as to genocide, there's a growing consensus that that's exactly what Israel is doing:
Even Once Reluctant Scholars Now Agree on Israel's Gaza Assault: It's a Genocide | Common Dreams
Is Israel committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Leading international experts say yes, with the majority of their peers in academia concurring. The debate is shifting as the death toll rises and humanitarian aid is blocked. Are you ready to confront the harsh reality of what's...
Insult never further a discussion- instead, they distract from it. I suspect that's your goal, though perhaps an unconscious one.
Yeah, they are on top of our oil. We opened our Middle East entrance by installing the Shah of Iran, overthrowing an elected leader, Mossadeq. Our oil companies were in charge. The Iranians suffered terribly. Bush attacked Iraq based on lies. Our issues are our fault.
NiftyNiblick
1960s Chick Magnet
Muslim nations have been steadfastly opposed to the existence of Israel since it was founded.While I don't think that Israel has actually -declared- war on any other country, it's certainly -acting- like a country at war with various other middle eastern countries. From Palestine (if you agree that it's a country) to Lebanon, Syria and now Iran, Israel has certainly kept itself busy. I thought I'd make this thread as a central place to talk about all these wars that Israel is engaged in, as well as the United States' role in them. I'll start off with a speech, or rant, as Scott Ritter likes to call them, on who Trump is listening to when it comes to national intelligence issues:
Ritter's Rant Ep. 6: Who Control's the President?
Tulsi Gabbard is supposed to brief the President on all matter pertaining to intelligence. He says he doesn't care what she says. Who is briefing the President?scottritter.substack.com
He brings up the likelihood that Trump is listening more to Israeli intelligence than his own, which I think most would agree is a sad state of affairs.
I'd also like to link to a previous thread I made on the subject of assassinations and Israel's reliance on them both in the past and in the present day:
I don't see where Israel has much choice.
If you accept the fact that Israel shouldn't be there,
you should also accept the fact that non-indigenous people don't belong in the Americas either.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
The Shah at least aligned with the West politically. Better the tyrant you know than installing a new tyrant you don't know.
Scott
Verified User
Muslim nations have been steadfastly opposed to the existence of Israel since it was founded.While I don't think that Israel has actually -declared- war on any other country, it's certainly -acting- like a country at war with various other middle eastern countries. From Palestine (if you agree that it's a country) to Lebanon, Syria and now Iran, Israel has certainly kept itself busy. I thought I'd make this thread as a central place to talk about all these wars that Israel is engaged in, as well as the United States' role in them. I'll start off with a speech, or rant, as Scott Ritter likes to call them, on who Trump is listening to when it comes to national intelligence issues:
Ritter's Rant Ep. 6: Who Control's the President?
Tulsi Gabbard is supposed to brief the President on all matter pertaining to intelligence. He says he doesn't care what she says. Who is briefing the President?
He brings up the likelihood that Trump is listening more to Israeli intelligence than his own, which I think most would agree is a sad state of affairs.
I'd also like to link to a previous thread I made on the subject of assassinations and Israel's reliance on them both in the past and in the present day:
I don't see where Israel has much choice.
If you accept the fact that Israel shouldn't be there,
you should also accept the fact that non-indigenous people don't belong in the Americas either.
I'd say the most important thing anywhere is, how are the people living there being treated? Israel's got an abysmal record when it comes to its treatment of Arabs, since its very inception. Up until now, it's basically ruled the arab territories it's taken largely by force through brute force, but brute force can only get you so far, especially when you start hitting countries that have more than a few rocket launchers at their disposal. And now this...
Could Russia Arm Iran? Kremlin Insider Hints At Nuclear Support After US Strikes - Watch
Dmitry Medvedev, former Russian President, criticised recent US airstrikes on Iranian nuclear sites, claiming they failed to achieve their objectives and instead strengthened Iran's resolve and political regime., World News News - Times Now
www.timesnownews.com
Scott
Verified User
You got it backwards- the U.S. toppled the democratically elected government of Iran to install the shah, who was a tyrant:
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
They toppled a Leftist-Socialist government seen at the time as likely to align with the Soviet Union to install the Shah that was firmly going to align with the West. It was a geo-political move in view of the cold war and politics of the time.
The 6 day war really showed the Arab's love and respect for Israel huh?I'd say the most important thing anywhere is, how are the people living there being treated? Israel's got an abysmal record when it comes to its treatment of Arabs, since its very inception. Up until now, it's basically ruled the arab territories it's taken largely by force through brute force, but brute force can only get you so far, especially when you start hitting countries that have more than a few rocket launchers at their disposal. And now this...
Could Russia Arm Iran? Kremlin Insider Hints At Nuclear Support After US Strikes - Watch
Dmitry Medvedev, former Russian President, criticised recent US airstrikes on Iranian nuclear sites, claiming they failed to achieve their objectives and instead strengthened Iran's resolve and political regime., World News News - Times Now
Scott
Verified User
I've seen no evidence that the Soviet Union had anything to do with it. Here's a bit of what the NPR article had to say on the cause of the United States' decision to overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader:
**
On Aug. 19, 2013, the CIA publicly admitted for the first time its involvement in the 1953 coup against Iran's elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh.
The documents provided details of the CIA's plan at the time, which was led by senior officer Kermit Roosevelt Jr., the grandson of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt. Over the course of four days in August 1953, Roosevelt would orchestrate not one, but two attempts to destabilize the government of Iran, forever changing the relationship between the country and the U.S. In this episode, we go back to retrace what happened in the inaugural episode of NPR's new history podcast, Throughline.
Mohammad Mossadegh was a beloved figure in Iran. During his tenure, he introduced a range of social and economic policies, the most significant being the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry. Great Britain had controlled Iran's oil for decades through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. After months of talks the prime minister broke off negotiations and denied the British any further involvement in Iran's oil industry. Britain then appealed to the United States for help, which eventually led the CIA to orchestrate the overthrow of Mossadegh and restore power to Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the last Shah of Iran.
According to Stephen Kinzer, author of the book All the Shah's Men, Roosevelt quickly seized control of the Iranian press by buying them off with bribes and circulating anti-Mossadegh propaganda. He recruited allies among the Islamic clergy, and he convinced the shah that Mossadegh was a threat. The last step entailed a dramatic attempt to apprehend Mossadegh at his house in the middle of the night. But the coup failed. Mossadegh learned of it and fought back. The next morning, he announced victory over the radio.
Mossadegh thought he was in the clear, but Roosevelt hadn't given up. He orchestrated a second coup, which succeeded. Mossadegh was placed on trial and spent his life under house arrest. The shah returned to power and ruled for another 25 years until the 1979 Iranian Revolution.
**
Full article:
Scott
Verified User
The 6 day war really showed the Arab's love and respect for Israel huh?I'd say the most important thing anywhere is, how are the people living there being treated? Israel's got an abysmal record when it comes to its treatment of Arabs, since its very inception. Up until now, it's basically ruled the arab territories it's taken largely by force through brute force, but brute force can only get you so far, especially when you start hitting countries that have more than a few rocket launchers at their disposal. And now this...
Could Russia Arm Iran? Kremlin Insider Hints At Nuclear Support After US Strikes - Watch
Dmitry Medvedev, former Russian President, criticised recent US airstrikes on Iranian nuclear sites, claiming they failed to achieve their objectives and instead strengthened Iran's resolve and political regime., World News News - Times Now
Israel's the one that started that war, though to be fair, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that other middle eastern countries' actions would lead to that result. The more important factor is what Israel itself did to get said other countries to do those actions. Wikipedia has a summary of said actions here:
**
Summary of events leading to war
After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt agreed to the stationing of a United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai to ensure all parties would comply with the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Despite the overwhelming support for Resolution 1000 in the UN General Assembly (UNGA), Israel refused to allow UNEF forces onto its territory. In the following years, there were numerous minor border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Syria. In early November, 1966, Syria signed a mutual defense agreement with Egypt. On November 13, 1966, in response to PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) guerrilla activity, including a mine attack that left three dead, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) attacked the village of as-Samu in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank. Jordanian units that engaged the Israelis were quickly beaten back. King Hussein of Jordan criticized Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser for failing to come to Jordan's aid, and "hiding behind UNEF skirts". Israel was censured for this invasion in United Nations Security Council Resolution 228, being reproached by the US, the UK, France and the USSR. On April 7, 1967, Israel invaded Syria. The USSR urged that the collective defense agreement with Egypt had been triggered. In May 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran. Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war. Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23. On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan. They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that launched the Six-Day War.
**
Source:
Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia
They were just defending themselves. They did not start it.Israel's the one that started that war, though to be fair, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that other middle eastern countries' actions would lead to that result. The more important factor is what Israel itself did to get said other countries to do those actions. Wikipedia has a summary of said actions here:
**
Summary of events leading to war
After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt agreed to the stationing of a United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai to ensure all parties would comply with the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Despite the overwhelming support for Resolution 1000 in the UN General Assembly (UNGA), Israel refused to allow UNEF forces onto its territory. In the following years, there were numerous minor border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Syria. In early November, 1966, Syria signed a mutual defense agreement with Egypt. On November 13, 1966, in response to PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) guerrilla activity, including a mine attack that left three dead, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) attacked the village of as-Samu in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank. Jordanian units that engaged the Israelis were quickly beaten back. King Hussein of Jordan criticized Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser for failing to come to Jordan's aid, and "hiding behind UNEF skirts". Israel was censured for this invasion in United Nations Security Council Resolution 228, being reproached by the US, the UK, France and the USSR. On April 7, 1967, Israel invaded Syria. The USSR urged that the collective defense agreement with Egypt had been triggered. In May 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.
Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran. Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war. Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23. On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan. They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that launched the Six-Day War.
**
Source:
Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
One can start with WW 2 when the Soviet Union occupied part of Iran in cooperation with the British occupying the rest. In the immediate post-war years, the Soviets refused to withdraw and set up several revolutionary military / guerrilla groups to further maintain and extend their grasp on Iran. The British had withdrawn but continued to have serious influence in Iran, not to mention their usual political intrigues.
Through the first half of the 50's Iran increasingly came under Mossadegh's control with the Shah losing power steadily. The British were completely opposed to Mossadegh and in particular his nationalizing of the oil industry. Britain, unable to handle a revolution in Iran on their own drug an unwilling US into this mess, in part by pointing out Mossadegh's socialist programs and claiming (true or untrue) that he was being pushed into the Soviet's spere of influence with the Communist elements in Iranian politics.
The US got involved through the CIA and eventually overthrew Mossadegh reinstating the Shah who they propped up with large piles of cash.
This whole problem came about because of Britain, oil, and the Soviet Union. The last of those, was mostly just a secondary player in this having only limited influence at most in Iran. But the problem wasn't made by the US, it was made by Britain. The US was a reluctant participant manipulated by the British into doing their dirty work for them.
Scott
Verified User
They were just defending themselves. They did not start it.Israel's the one that started that war, though to be fair, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that other middle eastern countries' actions would lead to that result. The more important factor is what Israel itself did to get said other countries to do those actions. Wikipedia has a summary of said actions here:
**
Summary of events leading to war
After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt agreed to the stationing of a United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai to ensure all parties would comply with the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Despite the overwhelming support for Resolution 1000 in the UN General Assembly (UNGA), Israel refused to allow UNEF forces onto its territory. In the following years, there were numerous minor border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Syria. In early November, 1966, Syria signed a mutual defense agreement with Egypt. On November 13, 1966, in response to PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) guerrilla activity, including a mine attack that left three dead, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) attacked the village of as-Samu in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank. Jordanian units that engaged the Israelis were quickly beaten back. King Hussein of Jordan criticized Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser for failing to come to Jordan's aid, and "hiding behind UNEF skirts". Israel was censured for this invasion in United Nations Security Council Resolution 228, being reproached by the US, the UK, France and the USSR. On April 7, 1967, Israel invaded Syria. The USSR urged that the collective defense agreement with Egypt had been triggered. In May 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.
Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran. Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war. Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23. On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan. They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that launched the Six-Day War.
**
Source:
Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia
You want to argue with Wikipedia's assessment that Israel started the 6 day war, be my guest, but without evidence it's just your word against Wikipedia's. As to the idea that Israel was "just defending themselves", that'd be more credible if the U.S., the UK, France and the USSR didn't reproach Israel for its invasion.
Yes. Israel was surrounded on all side by Arab nations with troops and equipment on their borders. They were not there for show. Read your own link. First strike in that situation is not only self defense, it is common sense. That is why the Arab's were caught off guard.
Scott
Verified User
That assessment sounds fairly reasonable. Anyway, I think things would have been a lot better if Mossadegh had remained in power.