Is cancelation of student debt "fair?"

[T. A. Gardner]

If you are smart enough to go to college then you should be smart enough not to incur more debt than you can afford to pay back. I paid for my education, my wife's my son's and my niece's education. It would be unfair to expect me to pay for other people's college too. Universities need to tighten their belts and find ways to provide less expensive education. As long as easy government money is available they will never find ways to economize.

Exactly. I spent my time in the military and got 'free' college as a job benefit of that service.

Here's why colleges have gotten so expensive--at least in part:

You are going to college. It costs $100 for a class. You can pay cash and take the class.

The government comes along and says, 'We'll give any student a loan for $100 to take that class.' Their intent was to make the class affordable to those who don't have the $100.

What happens instead is the college sees this and raises their fees to $200. They know their current students can pay $100 and they know the government will give them the other $100. The college even sets up a system to help students get the $100 loan. They see the loans as a cash cow that makes them more money.

So long as the government is willing to subsidize higher education, higher education will maximize their profit by taking everything the government offers along with what their students can afford. Why shouldn't they?

 

[volsrock]

What isn't fair is that when I went to University of California, my annual tuition and fees was abou $2500, and today tuition and fees at the same school is 15 grand. A generation before me, University of California was essentially free in the 1960s when the first Boomers attended..

1960s


Gas was 30 cents and new cars were 2500.00 a house was just 20000.00....so i guess the price of those today are not fair

And the average (median) income of families in 1965 was $6,900...so its not fair that a company today has to pay 70000.00

You are one stupid son of a bitch

 

[T. A. Gardner]

fuck off is billionairs not paying taxes fair?

If a billionaire, or someone making minimum wage, is paying their taxes and doing so within the rules the government set, then that's fair. What you seem to be bitching about is that billionaires take advantage of the same loopholes and other things written into the tax code--often because congressmen want to take advantage of those loopholes and such themselves.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Finding a cost effective way to deal with student debt is a promotion of the general welfare.

No, its not. It is allowing debtors to get out of their legally acquired debt without penalty.

 

[Nordberg]

If you believe as we used to, that an educated society is better and will be more inventive and develop more highly qualified workers, then education should be free or cheap. Making education into a business focused on profits has damaged America. Lots of countries including those with higher standards of living, provide cheap education. That encourages people to get a lifetime education. We should do the same. Saddling graduates with an educational mortgage is harmful to the economy and their lives.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

If you believe as we used to, that an educated society is better and will be more inventive and develop more highly qualified workers, then education should be free or cheap. Making education into a business focused on profits has damaged America. Lots of countries including those with higher standards of living, provide cheap education. That encourages people to get a lifetime education. We should do the same. Saddling graduates with an educational mortgage is harmful to the economy and their lives.

It is free through high school. The problem is that high schools no longer are graduating students with a high school level of competence and education. They've become more like daycare centers-- well the inner city ones are sometimes more like juvenile prisons now...

There's huge shortages in the US of people in the trades and other skilled jobs that don't require a college degree. Kids are being told that college is the only way to get a really good job. That's bullshit.

 

[Nordberg]

It is free through high school. The problem is that high schools no longer are graduating students with a high school level of competence and education. They've become more like daycare centers-- well the inner city ones are sometimes more like juvenile prisons now...

There's huge shortages in the US of people in the trades and other skilled jobs that don't require a college degree. Kids are being told that college is the only way to get a really good job. That's bullshit.

That is a different argument. We were talking about the cost of college and you turned it into whether everyone should go. We used to have trade schools. College and working in an office is not for everyone. Nobody is arguing that all should go. Apprenticeships were available in the past. The big 3 actually operated trade schools.Options were available.
Even auto mechanics require an ongoing education. Technology is forcing people who are in trades to have an ongoing education.

 

[BidenPresident]

There's huge shortages in the US of people in the trades and other skilled jobs that don't require a college degree.

Do you have that information? A lot of people say that but I've never seen the evidence.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't know what a Khan academy is. Frankly, I wouldn't trade my University of California degree with any web-based private school. And at least for the foreseeable future a Harvard Law Degree is just going to be considered head and shoulders above an online law degree of that nature.

I don't think the large public universities should be favored. I think students at accredited trade schools and vocational training should be considered for federal or state subsidy.

Dude, Harvard is going to be above most brick and mortar Universities but the odds of most people getting in are slim and none unless they have powerful connections or a shit pot full of money.

What I see you writing is that any online education is worthless. Is that correct? If not then why the fight against offering it? Because it's less than a full four-year scholarship to every 17-30 year old in America?

There's an inverse correlation between the cost of a social program such as free college and the likelihood of it passing anytime soon under an evenly split government.

The better move, IMO, is to go for the sure win now and use it as a stepping stone to better programs.

Long-winded example: In the civilian free-market world, flight instructors and schools will teach almost anyone to fly as long as they have the money. A student could take lessons forever and the school/instructor wouldn't care as long as they profit from it. The student isn't required to pass ground school training or take the test to fly. Those are only required to earn their flight certificate.

The military is tighter with it's money; it requires all pilot applicants to pass physical and psychological tests just to get into a ground school class. No student even sits in an aircraft until they have successfully completed all ground prerequisites. Even then, about a third failed to complete the program. IMO, about 2/3s just quit because it took more work than they were willing to put out. The remaining third had medical issues of one form or another.

I'd look at "free college" a lot kinder if someone could prove to me that students were worth the price. Students completing an online AA or AS degree would be one way to persuade me.

Note the previously posted stats.

Possibly. First they have to graduate then they have to get a good job. I've seen a lot of secretaries with degrees in zoology and French Lit.

Note the stats below. The first two years of college can be done living at home to save money. The majority of the first two years of college can be done online.

IMO, let's work on making college cheaper and more accessible, even to AP HS students, rather than simply giving away money to overpriced colleges.

https://educationdata.org/college-dropout-rates
n the United States, the overall dropout rate for undergraduate college students is 40%.

• 30% of the dropout rate comes from college freshman dropping out before their sophomore year.
• In 4-year colleges, 56% of students drop out within 6 years.
• Black students had the highest college dropout rate at 54%.
• 38% of college dropouts – the largest majority – said they left due to financial pressure.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That is a different argument. We were talking about the cost of college and you turned it into whether everyone should go. We used to have trade schools. College and working in an office is not for everyone. Nobody is arguing that all should go. Apprenticeships were available in the past. The big 3 actually operated trade schools.Options were available.
Even auto mechanics require an ongoing education. Technology is forcing people who are in trades to have an ongoing education.

We still do. Vocational Technical schools, Vo-Tech.

There are ripoff schools. We had two "Technical" colleges in the Dallas area when I was looking to take night welding classes. Most of the community colleges provided all of the training necessary for a fair price. Same for other areas such as A/C, electrician, plumbing, etc.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It is free through high school. The problem is that high schools no longer are graduating students with a high school level of competence and education. They've become more like daycare centers-- well the inner city ones are sometimes more like juvenile prisons now...

There's huge shortages in the US of people in the trades and other skilled jobs that don't require a college degree. Kids are being told that college is the only way to get a really good job. That's bullshit.

Instead of "free college", a better investment would be putting more money into schools needing it. Only 8% of Federal dollars pay for education. The remaining 92% is local/State.

Some states need more help than others. Better educated HS students equal more qualified workers to pay taxes. Poorly educated ones end up being tax liabilities in prison to the tune of $30K+ each/year not to mention the cost of losing innocent citizens to murder and mayhem.

Among many other things, a major ideological difference between Chinese and Americans is how they view the future. Most Americans, like our Federal government, mainly look from year to year or election-to-election. The Chinese take the long view and project decades ahead since they have faith they'll still be here and are smart enough to ask the question "Where do we want to be in 60 years?" (3 generations).

Is the reason so many Americans go paycheck-to-paycheck because they are too stupid or too poorly educated to think more than two weeks ahead?

Education is planning ahead. A 1 or 2 year program is planning at least 1 or 2 years ahead. A four year degree, four years.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That is a different argument. We were talking about the cost of college and you turned it into whether everyone should go. We used to have trade schools. College and working in an office is not for everyone. Nobody is arguing that all should go. Apprenticeships were available in the past. The big 3 actually operated trade schools.Options were available.
Even auto mechanics require an ongoing education. Technology is forcing people who are in trades to have an ongoing education.

Many big manufacturers still do have such programs. They have difficulty getting people to sign up. The other issue is they have to reject some applicants because they lack the base education levels to do the program.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Do you have that information? A lot of people say that but I've never seen the evidence.

Have you been living under a rock? Never mind...

U.S. Skilled Trades Labor Shortage Heightens as In-Demand Jobs Remain Unfilled the Longest

https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...as-In-Demand-Jobs-Remain-Unfilled-the-Longest

Attracting Skilled Manufacturing Workers a Challenge as Aging Baby Boomers Retire

https://www.census.gov/library/stor...g-faces-labor-shortage-as-workforce-ages.html

Every year, ManpowerGroup--a high-profile workforce services firm--conducts a study to determine which positions are the hardest to fill for employers. The past three years, the same item has ranked #1 on the list: skilled trades.

"Skilled trades" refers to a number of occupations which require specific hands-on skills, such as machinists, welders, plumbers, and electricians. These occupations are a critical part of the nation's workforce, and play key roles in the fields of manufacturing, construction, and repair.

https://www.careerprofiles.info/skilled-trade-worker-shortage.html

 

[BidenPresident]

Have you been living under a rock? Never mind...

shut up

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Instead of "free college", a better investment would be putting more money into schools needing it. Only 8% of Federal dollars pay for education. The remaining 92% is local/State.

Some states need more help than others. Better educated HS students equal more qualified workers to pay taxes. Poorly educated ones end up being tax liabilities in prison to the tune of $30K+ each/year not to mention the cost of losing innocent citizens to murder and mayhem.

Among many other things, a major ideological difference between Chinese and Americans is how they view the future. Most Americans, like our Federal government, mainly look from year to year or election-to-election. The Chinese take the long view and project decades ahead since they have faith they'll still be here and are smart enough to ask the question "Where do we want to be in 60 years?" (3 generations).

Is the reason so many Americans go paycheck-to-paycheck because they are too stupid or too poorly educated to think more than two weeks ahead?

Education is planning ahead. A 1 or 2 year program is planning at least 1 or 2 years ahead. A four year degree, four years.

The problem(s) with K-12 isn't one of money. It's one of direction and workforce.

Taking the second first, right now about 75 to 85% of all teachers, administrators, and other personnel in public education are women. That's an obvious problem in itself. The other issue is one of most public schools have all but gotten rid of classes that introduce the trades and non-college options to students. Part of that has been driven by OSHA and EPA rules that make any sort of hands-on training that involves tools, chemicals, or other potentially hazardous materials nearly impossible both from a cost and from a safety perspective. Yes, you can be too safe and we're there with regulations.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The problem(s) with K-12 isn't one of money. It's one of direction and workforce.

Taking the second first, right now about 75 to 85% of all teachers, administrators, and other personnel in public education are women. That's an obvious problem in itself.

The other issue is one of most public schools have all but gotten rid of classes that introduce the trades and non-college options to students. Part of that has been driven by OSHA and EPA rules that make any sort of hands-on training that involves tools, chemicals, or other potentially hazardous materials nearly impossible both from a cost and from a safety perspective. Yes, you can be too safe and we're there with regulations.

Disagreed. Clearly the difference in education levels between Beverly Hills High School and some shithole school in Mississippi is money.

Every military retiree understands how funding works.

Why are women teachers a problem in your opinion?

Since States fund 92% of their education, I fail to see why they shouldn't decide the itinerary. Why are you dancing around a Federal standard?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Disagreed. Clearly the difference in education levels between Beverly Hills High School and some shithole school in Mississippi is money.

Wrong. Education has more to do with the student's family background than the school they attend. That is, if a student comes from a home that values education, has more opportunities to learn outside of school like books and parents that are well educated, they do better than students that come from a broken home where television is the only media available. Sure, there are exceptions both ways there but that is the general case.

Every military retiree understands how funding works.

Then why nationally is there no correlation between funding and results in public education?

Analysis shows little to no correlation between education spending and student achievement

https://www.npri.org/commentary/ana...n-education-spending-and-student-achievement/

Decades of Increased State Spending on Public Education Yield Scant Results

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/public-spending-education-_b_1883387

New York spent $21,206 per student in 2015—that’s more than any other U.S. state spent and almost twice the national average.

Here’s the Empire State’s K-12 educational performance on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) in 2015. As you can see, test scores aren’t that impressive.

https://www.americanexperiment.org/is-there-a-link-between-school-spending-student-achievement/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...to-improved-student-learning/?sh=3b1a40055135

Why are women teachers a problem in your opinion?

They are when they are the only teachers. Few or no male role models for boys is an issue. I could toss in the inequity and unfairness of having a female dominated education system too. Don't Progressives like you rail against such inequities in gender when it goes the other way?

Since States fund 92% of their education, I fail to see why they shouldn't decide the itinerary. Why are you dancing around a Federal standard?

States may fund their education systems but they still have to follow state and federal regulations on things like workplace safety and environmental rules in handling chemicals. The easiest route for a school system to take to do that is to eliminate most or all programs that would involve such issues and avoid dealing with them entirely. That means fewer trade and learning opportunities for students involving these things. No more shop programs. No hands on chemistry experiments--or limiting them to ones that don't involve chemicals that could be hazardous.

 

[danielpalos]

Cancelation of unequal protection of our at-will employment laws for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States is fair and what our Government is obligated to do.

 

[AProudLefty]

So the people that paid their loans and taxes ..got double charged. So how is that fair?

 

[danielpalos]

All laws of a general nature shall have uniform operation.