IRAN
- Thread starter wilton
- Start date
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
"self-loathing" ??? Are you jewish?
Sanity would argue that US foreign policy NEEDS a dramatic change of direction on far more than just Iran given the massive failures of the past eight years.
No one is afraid of the US anymore .. nor should they be. Thus, the policy of do as I say do not as I do, no longer works.
Iran is no threat to the US.
Nor is Vanezuela
Nor is Cuba
Nor was Iraq
China has nukes ..why aren't you suggesting that we go beat up on China?
How about North Korea?
Russia has nukes .. how about them?
Pakistan has nukes .. and lots of muslims .. are you in favor of nuking Pakistan?
amazing
Last time I checked, none of those countries find it necessary to "push Israel into the ocean". How do you have a constructive conversation with a government who says that?
and no, I'm not jewish.
maybe you're right, i just dont like it when people try to defend all the crazy shit that comes out of Iran with "well... it's our fault"
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Last time I checked, I live in the United States, not Isreal. I'm concerned about threats, REAL threats to the United States, not Israel.
If you're not jewish, how do you figure a different perspective on a proven failed foreign policy amounts to "self-loathing" and why is the safety of Israel more important to you than the safety of the United States?
Iran poses no threat to the United States.
1. At no point did I put Israel's safety above that of the U.S's. You're reaching.
2. Iran making threats towards Israel and sponsoring terrorists activities is destabilizing to the region. I'm sure you are aware of this.
3. It's self-loathing because, from what I can tell, you believe that it's the U.S.'s fault that Iran wants to destroy Israel.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Iran poses no threat to the US, yet you believe we should put our interests and American soldiers lives at risk for Israel. How is that "reaching?"
Iran poses no threat to the US.
Geopolitical interests destabalize the region .. invading Iraq destabilized the region .. Israeli aggression and atrocities destabilize the region.
Iran poses no threat to the US.
Obviously I've already won this exchange because you are inventing things to argue against which I've never said, intimated, or implied.
Read my comment slowly .. Iran does not trust the US because of OUR intervention in their affairs. Iran's problems with Israel have everything to do with THEIR participation in Iran's affairs, the plight of the Palestinian people, and the constant calls from within Israel to attack and destroy ALL muslims and to annihalate Iran.
Iran has every right to acquire weapons, if that's what they're doing, to defend themselves against a brutal enemy that has those weapons.
Dude, you're accusing me of inventing shit about your argument when you just did the same shit to me. I never suggested using troops against Iran. You either want to honestly debate this or not.
Israel doesn't fund terrorist who shoot rockets into Iran nor has the head of the Israeli government ever called for the destruction of Iran. FACTS. Quit trying to place some moral equivalence on Iran. It doesn't follow.
Topspin
Verified User
And we have killed millions of Arabs because of those words, How are we still behind in this escalation?
Dude, I like beating up up. You keep swinging and I'll keep knocking your dumb ass down.
You underlined my words .. now go back and read them dummy .. then post where I EVER mentioned "PM."
In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular Prime Minister, Mohammed Massadegh. The Eisenhower Administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons; but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs.
Moreover, during the next quarter century, the United States and the West gave sustained backing to the Shah's regime. Although it did much to develop the country economically, the Shah's government also brutally repressed political dissent.
Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright
Remarks before the American-Iranian Council
March 17, 2000, Washington, D.C.
As released by the Office of the Spokesman
U.S. Department of State
http://www.fas.org/news/iran/2000/000317.htm
My first comment in this thread ..
Missing from any news reports about Iran and missing from all the hysteria about Iran is the FACT that the US government overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed a brutal maniac dictator, the Shah.
Why would the US overthrow a democratically elected government if not to INSTALL a government of their liking?
How the fuck did the Shah come to be the leader of Iran?
.. backfist to the face followed by hook kick to the lower jaw.
The Shah WAS ALWAYS A LEADER of Iran during our support. The fact that you now pretend to have had the facts right, only proves what a dishonest idiot you are. You claimed that the Shah was "installed by the US" That statement without any further ado proves you're an idiot...and yet you continue to show just how big an idiot you enjoy being by trying to spin and parse away your stupidity, you failed. I DO KNOW about our involvement and what happened, nice of me to make you actually have to learn something...no thanks neccesary...really.
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
All right, let's look at this in very simple, easy to understand terms.
In 1979, to pick a year at random, Iran didn't really like America very much and America didn't really like Iran.
During the next 30 years America has followed a policy of attempting to destabilise the Iranian regime at every opportunity. It funded opposition groups, imposed sanctions, encouraged, funded and armed nations hostile to Iran, most notably that nice Mr Saddam Hussein (whatever happened to that cheeky scamp, eh?), labelled Iran part of the "axis of evil" and threatened it with war while rebuffing or ignoring every overture of détente offered by the Iranians.
In 2009 Iran still doesn't really like America, is funding a network of terrorist organizations throughout the Middle East, has increased its influence in the region and is on the verge of developing a nuclear bomb.
Now...would you say that American policy vis a vis Iran has been:
(a) A stunning success achieving all of America's aims
OR
(b) A fucking disaster
Take your time.
Love the way it's been made out to be “American" policy. The truth is Europe has allowed America to look like the bad guy on the block while they have been cheering her on.
Iran does not like America because it is being run by a couple of fundi nuts who have propagandized her citizens! Iran is stuck in a fundi time warp since 1979 that has crippled their economy, kept their women enslaved, and raised their children to be propaganda puppets willing to blow themselves up all in the name of Allah and hatred towards Jews! Yeah, these are people we should endear ourselves to for the sake of being liked!
We have the big stick because the rest of the west has decimated their military. They have done this and been able to look like humanitarian socialists giving away freebies to their citizens (which is now bankrupting them). Meanwhile back on the ranch, the American protectors sit and await the next crisis that Euro snots and cowards depend upon to keep their asses safe. Yes, depend on! They hold their noses and point their fingers at so called US hegemony, but you can bet your bottom dollar they'd already be genuflecting and scraping and bowing if we did not. They, the Euro's, love to hate us, but they don't want to change anything; they cannot afford to!
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
There we have it. The voice of "common sense".
I thought you may come up with something a little better than the 'blame everyone else it's not our fault' argument but, sadly, we live in a world of disappointment. Just keep on repeating "God Bless America" and everything will be fine in your world of apple pie and right-wing rhetoric.
Seeing as you didn't answer the question i'll just take your response as a "i don't know" (it's usually a safe bet in your case). Unless you want to argue that your foreign policy toward Iran has been a success? Go on, there must be something you could point to as a little success, even if it's a teeny-tiny itsy-bitsy ickle thing.
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
Who the hell is defending Iran? Is facing up to facts defending Iran? Is admiting that in the past that "we seriously fucked up" defending Iran? Is admitting that the Iranian hostility towards the USA has a legitimate basis based on our own perfidity in the past defending Iran? How is this self loathing? What you're calling "self loathing" is just an example of conservatives denying reality and avoiding some ugly facts. How can you truely expect to lead competently if you can't learn from your mistakes?
I mean next your going to say something dumb like "My country right or wrong."
Conservatives in the last 8 years have made some stupendous foreign policies fuck ups. Some of the biggest in our nations history. So who really wants to hear from a bunch of fuck ups who have been wrong on virtually all their foreigh policy positions, virtually all of them!
That's what is fundamentally wrong with the conservative approach to foreign policy. In America, it is our historical tradition to learn from our mistakes. We hold our selves to a higher standard. Americans worship at the alter of competency of getting things done right. This seperates Americans from many other nations. We do things right and when were wrong, we recognize those mistakes, we fix them and we get it done right.
But not conservatives, they have to wrap themselves in the flag and ideology and keep right on fucking up and as such they have no credibilty.
Let me ask you this, considering conservatives horrible track record in the last 8 years on foreign policy, why should any libertarian, independent, moderate or liberal even give them the time of day to listen to them on the subject? Why should we bother listening to people who have been so consistently and profoundly wrong so often and who are just seem so incapable of learning from their mistakes?
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
How does that present a clear and present danger to US national security?
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
Really? What about Israeli's walling palestinians up into a ghetto and denying them basic services, food, water, medicine access to jobs? How about when they launch rockets into camps and towns filled with civilians?
Israel is hardly an innocent player in this situation and Israeli national interest are theirs not ours. What does that have to do with protecting our National interest? Is our present Israeli policy sound foreign policy?
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
The course you seem to believe would be best for US foreign policy against Iran might very well lead to all manner of unintended consequences, including the use of American troops.
Israel is in violation of more UN Resolutions than any nation in history, including Iran, including Iraq. The atrocities the Israelis engaged in in Jenin, Gaza, and Lebanon are apparent to all who care to look.
No point in our discussing "moral equivilence" on this issue.
I'm not suggesting sending troops and I'm only using Iran's statements toward Israel as an example of their hypocrisy. Why should we change our behavior when they show no indication of changing theirs? They still call for the destruction of Israel and support terrorist activities in the region.
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
Iran has also offered to negotiate everything in recent years including recognition of Israel and conversion of Hezbollah to a purely political organisation.
They helped you out with intelligence in Afghanistan (which was readily accepted) and offered to do the same in Iraq (which the Whitehouse rejected outright).