Imagine No Religion...

Dixie said:
Well, worship IS spirituality. You have to be a very astute parser of words to describe worship any other way. Neanderthals didn't bury their dead with rituals, there is no evidence to suggest this. There is no evidence to suggest they worshiped or were spiritual. With homo sapien civilizations, we find evidence of worship and spirituality, they buried their dead with ceremonies using red ochre. These ritualistic burials date back to the earliest civilization we've discovered.

I've also not seen any evidence neanderthal 'interbred' with homo sapien. I would love to see the findings which prove this conclusively, I know it has been a speculation since they discovered both species were around at the same time. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the fact that neanderthal didn't worship and homo sapien did. The stark difference between the two species in this regard, has to be considered when examining why neanderthal died off and homo sapien thrived.
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from Michael Blume, 17. October 2009, 20:30
Among most scholars in the thriving field of evolutionary studies on religion, findings of burials are perceived as the first strong indicators of phenotypes evolving religiosity - that is: behavior towards supernatural agents (as ancestors, spirits or gods). Interestingly, these peculiar behaviors evolved not only in Homo sapiens, but also in Homo neanderthalensis.

http://www.scilogs.eu/en/gallery/3/previews-med/KebaraNeanderthalensisBurial.JPG



Here, you are seeing a picture of the neanderthal grave in the Kebara Cave (Israel), which is dated to about 60.000 BC. Note the lack of the skull, which may hint to special rituals attributed to the head and secondary burials, as has been reported by many recent cultures of hunters and gatherers.

Although our scientific knowledge about the subject is still premature, the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History in Washington is showing a wonderful panorama of a Neanderthal burial, based on contemporary interpretations of a rich site in Southern France.


From an evolutionary perspective, the parallel, biocultural emergence of a specific behavior is another indicator for an adaptive process.
 
Lowaicue said:
from Michael Blume, 17. October 2009, 20:30
Among most scholars in the thriving field of evolutionary studies on religion, findings of burials are perceived as the first strong indicators of phenotypes evolving religiosity - that is: behavior towards supernatural agents (as ancestors, spirits or gods). Interestingly, these peculiar behaviors evolved not only in Homo sapiens, but also in Homo neanderthalensis.

http://www.scilogs.eu/en/gallery/3/previews-med/KebaraNeanderthalensisBurial.JPG



Here, you are seeing a picture of the neanderthal grave in the Kebara Cave (Israel), which is dated to about 60.000 BC. Note the lack of the skull, which may hint to special rituals attributed to the head and secondary burials, as has been reported by many recent cultures of hunters and gatherers.

Although our scientific knowledge about the subject is still premature, the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History in Washington is showing a wonderful panorama of a Neanderthal burial, based on contemporary interpretations of a rich site in Southern France.


From an evolutionary perspective, the parallel, biocultural emergence of a specific behavior is another indicator for an adaptive process.
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I see where neanderthals buried their dead, and a nice little lineart depiction, but I am not seeing proof of spirituality. Did you ever smell a rotting corpse? Would you think, that might be a reason for neanderthal to bury the dead? Burial doesn't equate to spiritual belief, signs of rituals and ceremonies do. Is this the only proof you have to offer?
 
Dixie said:
I see where neanderthals buried their dead, and a nice little lineart depiction, but I am not seeing proof of spirituality. Did you ever smell a rotting corpse? Would you think, that might be a reason for neanderthal to bury the dead? Burial doesn't equate to spiritual belief, signs of rituals and ceremonies do. Is this the only proof you have to offer?
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It is not for me to even attempt at supplying proof. This is part of science and thus is a continuing process of discovery, unlike religion that demands finality and in trying to attain it is forced to invent its own 'truths'.
 
Lowaicue said:
It is not for me to even attempt at supplying proof. This is part of science and thus is a continuing process of discovery, unlike religion that demands finality and in trying to attain it is forced to invent its own 'truths'.
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Religion doesn't demand finality, we already know through science, there will one day be finality. Life is the continuing process of discovery, expanding spiritual understanding is the continued process of discovery. No 'truths' need to be invented, there are only facts that can be accepted or denied, it's entirely up to the individual. Neanderthal died out because they were unable to assimilate into civilized societies. This was due to a lack of spiritual enlightenment, there was no basis for 'human morality' without spirituality, there was no impetus to establish trust and faith in fellow neanderthal... thus, they vanished forever. Meanwhile, the spiritual beliefs of homo sapiens is well recorded through all of human history, and remains strong and profound today, as much as it ever has. You and I may not agree with radical Islam, but their spiritual faith is very strong. Evangelicals comprise the largest single block of voters in America. 95% of the world population believes in something greater than self. So we have FACTS versus your inability to supply proof to the contrary. I rest.
 
Rana said:
Why would you give a moose a cookie? It seems you don't reason well, either.
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my apologies....the Moose got the Muffin, the cookie went to the mouse...

9780060244057.jpg


series of children's books in which doing something for an animal leads them to come to the conclusion they need something else....problem escalates until they want more than you want to give.....in the cartoon environment, animals are often depicted as rational.....however the fact that Wiley Coyote knows how to use an Acme catalog should not be take by you to impute intelligence on the part of the species.....
 
Rana said:
It goes beyond repetition for a banana, obviously you have not read the studies and just continue to display your lack of knowledge in this area.
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Reading the captions underneath the pretty pictures does not equal reading the studies, nor the colouring book they gave you at the zoo...
 
Dixie said:
Religion doesn't demand finality, we already know through science, there will one day be finality. Life is the continuing process of discovery, expanding spiritual understanding is the continued process of discovery. No 'truths' need to be invented, there are only facts that can be accepted or denied, it's entirely up to the individual. Neanderthal died out because they were unable to assimilate into civilized societies. This was due to a lack of spiritual enlightenment, there was no basis for 'human morality' without spirituality, there was no impetus to establish trust and faith in fellow neanderthal... thus, they vanished forever. Meanwhile, the spiritual beliefs of homo sapiens is well recorded through all of human history, and remains strong and profound today, as much as it ever has. You and I may not agree with radical Islam, but their spiritual faith is very strong. Evangelicals comprise the largest single block of voters in America. 95% of the world population believes in something greater than self. So we have FACTS versus your inability to supply proof to the contrary. I rest.
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This from a 'Creationism' site. (one of your own tripe, Dix).. The Neanderthals were known to bury their dead (whose bodies they covered in flowers), they used tools, worked with animal hides, took care of each other and generally acted like humans act. There is no indication that they were the brutish beasts they are seen as by many today. Their brain cavity was actually much larger than the average brain today.
Tripe was a fortuitous error I, of course, meant 'tribe'.
 
tom prendergast said:
A picture saves a thousand words.

sophisticated-religion.jpg
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One picture is worth a thousand words? You give me a thousand words and I can give you:
the Lord's Prayer, the Twenty-third Psalm,
the Hippocratic Oath, a sonnet by Shakespeare, the Preamble to the Constitution, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, the last graphs of Martin Luther King's speech to the March on Washington, and the final entry of Anne Frank's diary.

You give me a thousand words, and I don't think I'd trade you for any picture on earth."
— Scott Simon
 
Lowaicue said:
One picture is worth a thousand words? You give me a thousand words and I can give you:
the Lord's Prayer, the Twenty-third Psalm,
the Hippocratic Oath, a sonnet by Shakespeare, the Preamble to the Constitution, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, the last graphs of Martin Luther King's speech to the March on Washington, and the final entry of Anne Frank's diary.

You give me a thousand words, and I don't think I'd trade you for any picture on earth."
— Scott Simon
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Good God Low, stop being so anal.
 
Lowaicue said:
This from a 'Creationism' site. (one of your own tripe, Dix).. The Neanderthals were known to bury their dead (whose bodies they covered in flowers), they used tools, worked with animal hides, took care of each other and generally acted like humans act. There is no indication that they were the brutish beasts they are seen as by many today. Their brain cavity was actually much larger than the average brain today.
Tripe was a fortuitous error I, of course, meant 'tribe'.
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The only thing here that suggests spirituality, is the use of flowers for the dead, but that could just as easily be because flowers smell good and a rotten corpse smells bad. Anthropologists (not a creationism site) have discovered no signs of spirituality or worship among neanderthal remains. It continues to be one of the stark differences between neanderthal and homo sapiens of the time. Now you can say this doesn't prove neanderthal became extinct because of lack of spirituality, but we really can't find another logical explanation. As you point out, neanderthals did all kinds of other things associated with homo sapiens, they just didn't worship or have spiritual enlightenment.
 
from the op, sounds good to me

now spirituality, that is another thing altogether, but let us keep religion and spirituality separate
 
Dixie said:
Neanderthal died out because they were unable to assimilate into civilized societies. This was due to a lack of spiritual enlightenment, there was no basis for 'human morality' without spirituality, there was no impetus to establish trust and faith in fellow neanderthal... thus, they vanished forever.
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Do you have a link for any of that?
 
Schadenfreude said:
from the op, sounds good to me

now spirituality, that is another thing altogether, but let us keep religion and spirituality separate
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I don't understand why you pinheads fail to comprehend, religion IS spirituality! You can't separate them, one is the result of the other. This is just turning into a silly childish argument over nonsense and semantics, is that because you lack substance? Is that because you can't really argue with the points made on their merit? There must be some logical reason you want to keep denying obvious facts and avoiding simple things we all know.

It's like you are trying to argue against roads, while endorsing cars! You've got nothing against cars, they are fine... it's those damn roads! Wye, roads are responsible for more people getting lost, than anything in the world. Roads can be crooked or oddly configured, causing people to wreck their cars and die, we should get rid of all roads and the world would be a better place! The truth of the matter is, as long as we have cars, we will have roads, whether we like them or want them or not! Even if we didn't "build" roads, the mere actions of cars traveling to and from various places, would eventually create a "road" regardless of what we want. The same is true with Spirituality and Religion, one (spirituality) causes the other (religion.) Oh, they are completely different things, a car isn't a road and a road isn't a car, but roads exist because cars exist, and as long as cars exist, roads will also, it is illogical and silly nonsense to argue otherwise.
 
OnzieBrain said:
Oh...you made it up? Because that's not why the Neanderthals died out.

Thanks for clarifying...
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Really? Why don't you explain to us, why Neanderthal died out? Oh, and since you stated this as a matter-of-fact, I am expecting you to provide unquestionable proof, not evidence which might suggest something. Go ahead, knock yourself out, Einstein!
 
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