Illian Omar wants to Destroy American System!

StoneByStone said:
If you look at the charts used, you'll see that they were cited.

According to this, America is even behind Lithuania, a former Eastern Bloc country.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries-1028885766

By the way, serious question here. Do you care about America as a country or only yourself and nobody else?
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Silly question. Ofc I care about America. That's why I'm fighting to preserve it. So far its the best country that's existed.
 
Irish said:
Silly question. Ofc I care about America. That's why I'm fighting to preserve it. So far its the best country that's existed.
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So shouldn't you support a system that helps the most amount of people? Social Democracy helps many more than Capitalism.
 
StoneByStone said:
So shouldn't you support a system that helps the most amount of people? Social Democracy helps many more than Capitalism.
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Rewards too many lazy people. I don't want to work my ass off, pay 50-70% tax, so a free loader can sit there and get a cool 40K a year.

You have to remember these "social Democracies" are also experiments. And it has failed spectacularly in other countries. See Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, that had to use extreme austerity to come back.

Ofc there is also Venezuela and other failed socialism states.
 
Irish said:
Rewards too many lazy people. I don't want to work my ass off, pay 50-70% tax, so a free loader can sit there and get a cool 40K a year.
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That's not how it works. In Social Democrat countries, people who get free health care still work jobs. The Fox News caricature of the society where 90% of the population just stays at home and collects money isn't real. If it was, the Nordic countries wouldn't have a higher living standard than America.
This system also builds a better economy, which is why the Nordic countries have more social mobility and stability than America.

You have to remember these "social Democracies" are also experiments. And it has failed spectacularly in other countries. See Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, that had to use extreme austerity to come back.

Ofc there is also Venezuela and other failed socialism states.
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Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland didn't have as many welfare programs when their economies took a hit. Greece especially was more capitalist, which is why the banks owned so much of the wealth.
And Venezuela didn't have Social Democracy. Social Democracy has a free market and private property.
 
StoneByStone said:
That's not how it works. In Social Democrat countries, people who get free health care still work jobs. The Fox News caricature of the society where 90% of the population just stays at home and collects money isn't real. If it was, the Nordic countries wouldn't have a higher living standard than America.
This system also builds a better economy, which is why the Nordic countries have more social mobility and stability than America.



Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland didn't have as many welfare programs when their economies took a hit. Greece especially was more capitalist, which is why the banks owned so much of the wealth.
And Venezuela didn't have Social Democracy. Social Democracy has a free market and private property.
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Nordic countries aren't like the US. They haven't had 60 years of people sitting on welfare (since Johnsons great society legislation.) In our country we created an entire culture of welfare users who are wards of the state.

People in Nordic countries want to work, and are ashamed to stay on welfare and not work. Thanks to liberal policies here, the US has created generations of welfare users. So yes we would have people sitting around collecting.

Also Norway has a population of 5 million. We have 325 mill. The cost of universal HC here is much greater. Estimated to be anywhere from 20-50T! That would completely bankrupt us unless we have a MASSIVE tax hike. A massive tax hike on business and the wealthy would tank the economy into a recession.
 
Irish said:
Nordic countries aren't like the US. They haven't had 60 years of people sitting on welfare (since Johnsons great society legislation.) In our country we created an entire culture of welfare users who are wards of the state.
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Not counting disability, you can't receive welfare without doing community service, which means you have a job. If you can't find a job, the government basically gives you one in the form of community service. So no, we don't have a bunch of people just sitting at home getting free money.

Also Norway has a population of 5 million. We have 325 mill. The cost of universal HC here is much greater. Estimated to be anywhere from 20-50T! That would completely bankrupt us unless we have a MASSIVE tax hike. A massive tax hike on business and the wealthy would tank the economy into a recession.
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The population argument ignores the fact that we also have a much larger 1% than Norway, which easily balances it out.
And the inequality in America is so extreme that if we were to give the 1% a MASSIVE tax hike, they would still be rich.

 
StoneByStone said:
Not counting disability, you can't receive welfare without doing community service, which means you have a job. If you can't find a job, the government basically gives you one in the form of community service. So no, we don't have a bunch of people just sitting at home getting free money.



The population argument ignores the fact that we also have a much larger 1% than Norway, which easily balances it out.
And the inequality in America is so extreme that if we were to give the 1% a MASSIVE tax hike, they would still be rich.

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The above isn't true. You can get a lot of welfare without performing any kind of community service. Especially if you are a women having many kids.

Even still, a high tax on the top 1% would decrease growth and stymie the economy. Then you would have less to tax over time.

So you basically have to chose: free markets and capitalism and booming economy, or socialism and a slow economy. I rather have a job, than just be on some form of "guaranteed income."
 
Irish said:
The above isn't true. You can get a lot of welfare without performing any kind of community service. Especially if you are a women having many kids.
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Sure, there are some exceptions. Like I mentioned, disability. But without one of these special circumstances, you can't get welfare without doing some kind of work.

Even still, a high tax on the top 1% would decrease growth and stymie the economy. Then you would have less to tax over time.

So you basically have to chose: free markets and capitalism and booming economy, or socialism and a slow economy. I rather have a job, than just be on some form of "guaranteed income."
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That's just not what happens in practice. The Nordic countries have more economic development than America. So do a few other European countries as well as Singapore and Hong Kong.
And how exactly are you defining Socialism? I'm not saying we should have collective ownership like in the Soviet Union. I'm saying we should have a free market with generous welfare policies. The Nordic countries don't have Marxism.
 
StoneByStone said:
Sure, there are some exceptions. Like I mentioned, disability. But without one of these special circumstances, you can't get welfare without doing some kind of work.



That's just not what happens in practice. The Nordic countries have more economic development than America. So do a few other European countries as well as Singapore and Hong Kong.
And how exactly are you defining Socialism? I'm not saying we should have collective ownership like in the Soviet Union. I'm saying we should have a free market with generous welfare policies. The Nordic countries don't have Marxism.
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I get it, you want quasi socialism. But every system has its problems. The down side is 50-70% tax on middle and high income earners. The nordic countries are all the same race, ethnicity, language etc. They are more willing to be taxed to help their fellow citizens. You see how divided this country is. No one will go for it.
 
Irish said:
Rep Illian Omar wants to completely "dismantle" capitalist system.

This is a women who was welcomed into the US as a refugee. We gave her food, protection, welfare, EVERYTHING! Now she wants it DESTROYED!

She wants to turn America into Somalia!

These DEMONRATS are what we said they are. Anti-American traitors who want this country DESTROYED!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ng-economy-and-the-whole-system-of-oppression
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Indeed...this anti-Semite should be deported.
 
Irish said:
I get it, you want quasi socialism. But every system has its problems. The down side is 50-70% tax on middle and high income earners. The nordic countries are all the same race, ethnicity, language etc. They are more willing to be taxed to help their fellow citizens. You see how divided this country is. No one will go for it.
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Sure, every system has its problems, every country will always have problems. It's not like there's no crime or poverty in Scandinavia. But Social Democracy creates societies with less crime and poverty than America. The living standards aren't at 100%, but they're higher than what we have in America. We'll never be done improving America, but that doesn't mean we should just give up.
It is true that Multiracialism makes achieving Social Democracy a LOT harder. It's one of the reasons the Republicans allow for non-white immigration, despite paying lip service to Nationalists. But I think most people would support higher taxes on the rich in order to have a better country. We just need to get the Conservatives to grow up a little and realize this helps all of us.
 
Irish said:
Nordic countries aren't like the US. They haven't had 60 years of people sitting on welfare (since Johnsons great society legislation.) In our country we created an entire culture of welfare users who are wards of the state.

People in Nordic countries want to work, and are ashamed to stay on welfare and not work. Thanks to liberal policies here, the US has created generations of welfare users. So yes we would have people sitting around collecting.

Also Norway has a population of 5 million. We have 325 mill. The cost of universal HC here is much greater. Estimated to be anywhere from 20-50T! That would completely bankrupt us unless we have a MASSIVE tax hike. A massive tax hike on business and the wealthy would tank the economy into a recession.
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Disproven time and time again. Do you guys ever get tired of using the same trash arguments you were given by the grifter, Reagan, in the 80s? and now repeated by the likes of Ben Shapiro?

Capitalism is a failure, period.
 
Year Zero said:
Disproven time and time again. Do you guys ever get tired of using the same trash arguments you were given by the grifter, Reagan, in the 80s? and now repeated by the likes of Ben Shapiro?

Capitalism is a failure, period.
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How about you just manage to do it once? I will wait.
 
StoneByStone said:
Sure, every system has its problems, every country will always have problems. It's not like there's no crime or poverty in Scandinavia. But Social Democracy creates societies with less crime and poverty than America. The living standards aren't at 100%, but they're higher than what we have in America. We'll never be done improving America, but that doesn't mean we should just give up.
It is true that Multiracialism makes achieving Social Democracy a LOT harder. It's one of the reasons the Republicans allow for non-white immigration, despite paying lip service to Nationalists. But I think most people would support higher taxes on the rich in order to have a better country. We just need to get the Conservatives to grow up a little and realize this helps all of us.
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Conservatives, growing up?

These are the same folks who defend their absolute right to take orders and live in accordance with the dictates from an imaginary friend who spews secrets only their holy book can define.

I don't think that will be happening anytime soon. And mark my words; american conservatism is CONJOINED With religion. The two are permanently tied to the same fate or destiny.
 
Sailor said:
How about you just manage to do it once? I will wait.
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I don't have to do anything. Look at the current system. Look at the pending mortgage collapse. Look at 2010. Look at 2000. Look at the relentless allowance by capitalist boobs to allow retirement funds to be gambled with, how speculation can eviscerate wealth with but a breath.

Your system DISPROVES itself.

The same can be said for the idiotic claim that america is too exceptional to model other behaviors.

Do you think for one moment we would have the covid numbers we have now if we had followed a South Korean model? How about New Zealand?

The only thing stopping progress is an arsonist batch of fear riddled, brainwashed voters who think every move and any move made by government is attached to lunatic conspiracy theories and government "overreach", which is just a bunch of noise. It's just like the absolute stupidity of the right's regulation claims.

Right wing regulation claim: Deregulate, businesses and markets will figure it out.

Ignores the fact that regulation was put in place PRECISELY BECAUSE BUSINESS AND MARKETS ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING WHAT THEY CLAIM.

The entire right wing thought pattern is "make claim X is broken, go out and actively break X, claim see I was right all along."

It's absolutely absurd you guys keep falling for this shit.

Stream protections exist because the waters are a public resource, not a private profit stream. Communities rely on clean water; thus regulation came in and said the streams must be clean. Now you guys want us to ignore that the regulation was put in place precisely because markets can't do anything but ask for more, and instead trust these same entities that caused the regulation in the first place, to fix it themselves, for example.

Pathetic.
 
Year Zero said:
I don't have to do anything. Look at the current system. Look at the pending mortgage collapse. Look at 2010. Look at 2000. Look at the relentless allowance by capitalist boobs to allow retirement funds to be gambled with, how speculation can eviscerate wealth with but a breath.

Your system DISPROVES itself.

The same can be said for the idiotic claim that america is too exceptional to model other behaviors.

Do you think for one moment we would have the covid numbers we have now if we had followed a South Korean model? How about New Zealand?

The only thing stopping progress is an arsonist batch of fear riddled, brainwashed voters who think every move and any move made by government is attached to lunatic conspiracy theories and government "overreach", which is just a bunch of noise. It's just like the absolute stupidity of the right's regulation claims.

Right wing regulation claim: Deregulate, businesses and markets will figure it out.

Ignores the fact that regulation was put in place PRECISELY BECAUSE BUSINESS AND MARKETS ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING WHAT THEY CLAIM.

The entire right wing thought pattern is "make claim X is broken, go out and actively break X, claim see I was right all along."

It's absolutely absurd you guys keep falling for this shit.

Stream protections exist because the waters are a public resource, not a private profit stream. Communities rely on clean water; thus regulation came in and said the streams must be clean. Now you guys want us to ignore that the regulation was put in place precisely because markets can't do anything but ask for more, and instead trust these same entities that caused the regulation in the first place, to fix it themselves, for example.

Pathetic.
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A typical liberal living off the government tit. Thanks for playing.
 
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