Ignorance on this board is ASTOUNDING!

You have proven over and over Jarod that it is you who is ignorant.

You don't even understand the premise and therefore the legal doctrines of Eminent Domain and yet call Dixie ignorant. Tell us oh so not wise one, what is Eminent Domain?

I clearly understand ED, and if they are taking property for a ligit gov. interest, they usually can do it, but it would be clear that to take this building at this time would not be for a legit. govt. interest.

You cant just pretend that you are taking it for a legit. govt. interest.

Its the same as employment law in Florida.... You can fire an employee for a good reason or for no reason, but not for a bad reason.

If you have had an affair with your employee and she breaks up with you, you can then fire her and claim it was for no reason, but if she sues you.... you WILL LOSE.....
 
You are just flat out WRONG on this, and I suggest, before you continue to call people "ignorant", you need to educate yourself on the subject matter. I have provided the following explanation of eminent domain:

Elements of Eminent Domain

To exercise the power of eminent domain, the government must prove that the four elements set forth in the Fifth Amendment are present: (1) private property (2) must be taken (3) for public use (4) and with just compensation. These elements have been interpreted broadly.

Private Property The first element requires that the property taken be private. Private property includes land as well as fixtures, leases, options, stocks, and other items. The rifle that was used to kill President john f. kennedy was

considered private property in an eminent domain proceeding.

Taking The second element refers to the taking of physical property, or a portion thereof, as well as the taking of property by reducing its value. Property value may be reduced because of noise, accessibility problems, or other agents. Dirt, timber, or rock appropriated from an individual's land for the construction of a highway is taken property for which the owner is entitled to compensation. In general, compensation must be paid when a restriction on the use of property is so extensive that it is tantamount to confiscation of the property.

Some property rights routinely receive constitutional protection, such as Water Rights. For example, if land is changed from waterfront to inland property by the construction of a highway on the shoreline, the owners of the affected property are to be compensated for their loss of use of the waterfront.

Another property right that is often litigated and routinely protected is the right to the reasonable and ordinary use of the space above privately owned land. Specifically, aircraft flights over private property that significantly interfere with the property owner's use may amount to a taking. The flights will not be deemed a taking unless they are so low and so frequent as to create a direct and immediate interference with the owner's use and enjoyment of the property.

Actions by the government that courts do not consider takings include the publication of plans or the plotting, locating, or laying out of public improvements, including streets, highways, and other public works, even though the publicity generated by such actions might hinder a sale of the land.

The courts have traditionally not recognized the regulation of property by the government as a taking. Regulating property restricts the property owner's use and may infringe on the owner's rights. To implement a regulation, the state exercises its police power and is able to control the use of the property. Although the courts recognized a regulation as a taking in 1922, they have been inconsistent in their later rulings on this issue. In Pennsylvania Coal Co. v. Mahon, 260 U.S. 393, 43 S. Ct. 158, 67 L. Ed. 322 (1922), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that coal mining under an owner's property was not a taking, despite a subsidence, or settling, of the property's surface. In 1987, the Court stated that regulations that are excessive require compensation under the Fifth Amendment (First English Evangelical Lutheran Church of Glendale v. County of Los Angeles, 482 U.S. 304, 107 S. Ct. 2378, 96 L. Ed. 2d 250 [1987]). More recently, the Court determined that regulations that strip property of value or that do not substantially advance legitimate state interests are takings for which compensation is required (Nollan v. California Coastal Commission, 483 U.S. 825, 107 S. Ct. 3141, 97 L. Ed. 2d 677 [1987]).

In a case examining a Moratorium imposed on development in the Lake Tahoe area, the U.S. Supreme Court has decided that a moratorium on development is not necessarily a taking, and that regulatory takings cases must be decided on a case-by-case basis rather than on categorical rules, Tahoe-Sierra Preservation Council v. Tahoe Regional Planning Agency, 535 U.S. 302, 122 S. Ct. 1465, 152 L. Ed. 2d 517 (U.S., Apr 23, 2002) (NO. 00-1167). In that case, the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency had imposed a moratorium on construction and development that lasted almost three years while the agency devised rules to protect the water quality of Lake Tahoe on the California-Nevada border. Some of the property owners sued, claiming that the moratorium constituted a categorical taking because they were deprived of all economically beneficial use of the property during the period of the moratorium. In a 6–3 decision, the Court held that because the regulation was temporary, it could not constitute a categorical taking.

Public Use The third element, public use, requires that the property taken be used to benefit the public rather than specific individuals. Whether a particular use is considered public is ordinarily a question to be determined by the courts. However, if the legislature has made a declaration about a specific public use, the courts will defer to legislative intent (Hawaii Housing Authority v. Midkiff, 467 U.S. 229, 104 S. Ct. 2321, 81 L. Ed. 2d 186 [1984]). Further, "[t]he legislature may determine what private property is needed for public purpose … but when the taking has been ordered, then the question of compensation is judicial" (Monongahela Navigation Co. v. United States, 148 U.S. 312, 13 S. Ct. 622, 37 L. Ed. 463 [1893]).

To determine whether property has been taken for public use, the courts first determined whether the property was to be used by a broad segment of the general public. The definition of public use was later broadened to include anything that benefited the public, such as trade centers, municipal civic centers, and airport expansions. The U.S. Supreme Court continued to expand the definition of public use to include aesthetic considerations. In Berman v. Parker, 348 U.S. 26, 75 S. Ct. 98, 99 L. Ed. 27 (1954), the Court ruled that slums could be cleared in order to make a city more visually attractive. The Court in Berman stated further that it is within legislative power to determine whether a property can be condemned solely to beautify a community.

State courts have also expanded the definition of public use. The Michigan Supreme Court even allowed property to be condemned for the private use of the General Motors Company, under the theory that the public would benefit from the economic revitalization a new plant would bring to the community (Poletown Neighborhood Council v. City of Detroit, 410 Mich. 616, 304 N. W. 2d 455 [1981]).

Just Compensation The last element set forth in the Fifth Amendment mandates that the amount of compensation awarded when property is seized or damaged through condemnation must be fair to the public as well as to the property owner (Searl v. School District No. 2 of Lake County, 133 U.S. 553, 10 S. Ct. 374, 33 L. Ed. 740 [1890]). Because no precise formula for determining it exists, just compensation is the subject of frequent litigation.

The courts tend to emphasize the rights of the property owner in eminent domain proceedings. The owner usually has not initiated the action but has been brought into the litigation because his or her property is needed for public use. The owner must participate in the proceedings, which can impose an emotional and financial burden.

The measure of damages is often the fair market value of the property that is harmed or taken for public use. The market value is commonly defined as the price that reasonably could have resulted from negotiations between an owner who was willing to sell it and a purchaser who wanted to buy it. The value of real property is assessed based on the uses to which it reasonably can be put. Elements for consideration include the history and general character of the area, the adaptability of the land for future buildings, and the use intended for the property after its taking. Generally, the best use of the land is considered to be its use at the time it was condemned, even though the condemnor might not intend to use the land in the same manner as the owner. Crops, grass, trees, minerals, rental income, and all other items that fairly enter into the question of value are taken into consideration when determining just compensation. The amount of compensation should be measured by the owner's loss rather than by the condemnor's gain, and the owner should be placed in as good a financial position as he or she would have been in had the property not been taken (Monongahela). The compensation should be paid in cash, and the amount is determined as of the date title vests in the condemnor. Interest is paid on the award until the date of payment.

Condemnation Proceedings

Condemnation proceedings vary according to individual state and federal laws. In general, the proceedings should be conducted as quickly as possible. A proceeding does not require court involvement if the condemnor and landowner enter into a contract for the taking of the property for a public use. A seizure pursuant to such a contract is as effective as if it were done through formal condemnation proceedings.

Condemnation usually consists of two phases: proceedings that relate to the right of the condemnor to take the property, and proceedings to set the amount of compensation to be paid for the property taken. The commencement of the proceedings does not curtail ordinary use of the condemned property by the owner as long as the use does not substantially change the condition of the property or its value.

States require special procedures for certain cases, categorized by either the purpose for which the property is sought or the character of the party seeking to take it. For example, a special procedure is required when property is to be taken for a street, highway, park, drain, levee, sewer, canal, or waterway. In a procedure called a quick taking, the condemnor is permitted to take immediate possession and use of the property, and the owner must receive cash compensation in advance of the proceeding.

The owner has the right to due process during condemnation proceedings. He or she must be notified in a timely manner and must be given a reasonable opportunity to be heard on the issues of whether the use for which the property is expropriated is public and whether the compensation is just. Due process considerations mandate that the landowner receive an opportunity to present evidence and to confront or cross-examine witnesses. The owner has an automatic right to appeal.

Due process does not require a jury trial in condemnation proceedings, although various state constitutions and statutes provide for assessment by a jury. Absent contrary state provisions, a court has the discretionary power to grant or refuse a motion for view of the premises by a jury. A condemnation judgment or order must be recorded.
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Now, as you can see, if you are able to comprehend this rather detailed legal explanation, the government does indeed have the right to take the property under eminent domain. They do not have to prove that legitimate state interests are the "real" reason, nor do they have to defend said state interest from accusations they are not the "real" reason. As long as they present a legitimate reason in state interest, and compensate the owner for the property, they can do it.

I pointed this out to Stringy the other day, when we were debating the possibility of ED in this case. If you and Stringy were correct, then anyone who ever found themselves on the wrong end of an ED case, could claim they planned to build a church, and the taking of the property would violate their constitutional rights to freedom of religion. If that were the case, it would render ANY eminent domain irrelevant.

I'm glad some others weighed in on this before I saw it, I won't pile on, you can't help it that you are illiterate and ignorant of the law. I really do wish you would find something better to do than obsessing with Dixie, it's starting to get a little creepy.

Dixie, you are correct about the procedure and I acknoledge your prepararedness on this issue.... You know the procedure hands down....

What you fail to see, and I have told you in prior posts.... Is that the court would look beyond the Governments Stated Purpose....

If it were clear, as it would be in this case, that the true intent of the Government was to prevent a religous practice or to limit free speach, the TAKING by the government would be overruled by the court, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAY!

This is crystal clear.... Dispite the procedure for an ED case. What you are ignorant of is not the LAW on ED, but how it interealtes to other areas of the law and how the Courts would consider that, and how the Courts OPERATE.

The Courts would NOT allow this property to be taken by ED.

Now, had NYC planned a 6 block square memorial to the WTC and this Community Center fell into that area.... and it was planned prior to this contraversy.... You might have a chance at winning such an argument.
 
If collecting more taxes was the sole purpose of taking the land they could take it, but that would not be the sole reason for taking this land. You know better than that.!

You cant just waltz into court after this type of contraversy and say, Ohh, I am only taking this land for taxes. You would never get away with it because it would be clear you were lying!
Clearly they aren't taking the land at all, however you said that they "could not" and that Dix was "ignorant" for saying they could... and that was where you were flatly wrong. Currently they collect $0 in taxes from the place. They "could" take it, Dixie was right. Now, can you take an honest tack on this one and admit you were working on "feeling" rather than on law?

The reality of it is, they "can" and it isn't "ignorance" to suggest they "can". It may be difficult for you, but you need to admit Dixie was right and your knee-jerk emotive response was wrong, at least on how the SCOTUS has recently ruled.
 
Jarod, the mosque could be defeated if a someone wanted to buy the land for a purpose that generated more taxable revenue and officials agreed to do it.

The mosque could be defeated easily and legally in this fashion.
 
Jarod, the mosque could be defeated if a someone wanted to buy the land for a purpose that generated more taxable revenue and officials agreed to do it.

The mosque could be defeated easily and legally in this fashion.
They already said they'd accept some ridiculously high offer for the land. The best way to get them to move it would be to start a funding drive. Donald Trump offered about 25% more than it was worth, but it is still less than the offer they said they'd accept.
 
Clearly they aren't taking the land at all, however you said that they "could not" and that Dix was "ignorant" for saying they could... and that was where you were flatly wrong. Currently they collect $0 in taxes from the place. They "could" take it, Dixie was right. Now, can you take an honest tack on this one and admit you were working on "feeling" rather than on law?

The reality of it is, they "can" and it isn't "ignorance" to suggest they "can". It may be difficult for you, but you need to admit Dixie was right and your knee-jerk emotive response was wrong, at least on how the SCOTUS has recently ruled.

You are wrong, see above, anyone with experience in this area can tell you, if you can show evidence that intent is truely for an unconstitutional purpose, they cannot take it. That would be simple in this case.

You are correct that should they choose to take the land next door to the Community Center that was not to be used for a religous use... they likely could take it.
 
Jarod, the mosque could be defeated if a someone wanted to buy the land for a purpose that generated more taxable revenue and officials agreed to do it.

The mosque could be defeated easily and legally in this fashion.

You are incorrect, check witn any ED lawyer.

Had this contraversy not come up, had the intended to use the land for say a park... you would likely be correct, but under the current situation you are clearly WRONG... Just look into it before you entrence yourself into you incorrect position.
 
They already said they'd accept some ridiculously high offer for the land. The best way to get them to move it would be to start a funding drive. Donald Trump offered about 25% more than it was worth, but it is still less than the offer they said they'd accept.

This I can agree with....
 
You are incorrect, check witn any ED lawyer.

Had this contraversy not come up, had the intended to use the land for say a park... you would likely be correct, but under the current situation you are clearly WRONG... Just look into it before you entrence yourself into you incorrect position.

No. With the kelo decision, government can seize property and turn it over to parties who promise higher tax generation.

You educate yourself, fool.
 
No. With the kelo decision, government can seize property and turn it over to parties who promise higher tax generation.

You educate yourself, fool.

I understand the Kelo decision, and they can do that, unless there is an underlying bad (unconstitutional motive) and at that time they can not. Geesh, you dont understand that just because the rules of ED allow something, that does not mean that another area of the law, (first Amendment Law) can and WOULD (in a case such as this) be given prioroty.

For Example..

The law is clear that the Government can regulate for the purpose of Health and Safety of the unborn, they can require blood tests, and specific standards of pre-natal care... but the Constitutional right to FREEDOM to do with your own body what you choose prevents the Government from prohibiting early term abortions.
 
You are wrong, see above, anyone with experience in this area can tell you, if you can show evidence that intent is truely for an unconstitutional purpose, they cannot take it. That would be simple in this case.

You are correct that should they choose to take the land next door to the Community Center that was not to be used for a religous use... they likely could take it.
:rolleyes:

Again, you are emoting and you are wrong. What Dix said was possible, is actually possible. You allow emotion to cloud everything, I'm sure it makes a great display in court, but it isn't working here.

You got emotional, tried to say another was "ignorant" and thought you'd get away with it, expecting nobody to speak out because of the unpopularity of the person you erroneously labeled. Even in your post it was clear it is possible for this to happen.
 
Jarhead: ...if you can show evidence that intent is truely for an unconstitutional purpose, they cannot take it. That would be simple in this case.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong again, and if you read the procedures I posted, you can see that you are wrong.

The owner has the right to due process during condemnation proceedings. He or she must be notified in a timely manner and must be given a reasonable opportunity to be heard on the issues of whether the use for which the property is expropriated is public and whether the compensation is just. Due process considerations mandate that the landowner receive an opportunity to present evidence and to confront or cross-examine witnesses. The owner has an automatic right to appeal.

As I mentioned before, the city of New York retains a large number of attorneys, I seriously doubt they would implement an ED taking on the basis of denying Muslims the right to build a mosque, and if they did state such a reason for the ED taking, they would most probably lose. However, if they took the land for a public use, and compensated the owner, they have met the requirements of ED, and they do NOT have to 'prove intent' in court. As I said before, if you suspected they lied and took the land for another reason than what was stated, you might have the basis for a civil case, but it wouldn't prevent ED. The ONLY way to stop ED, would be to prove the intended 'public use' was not a 'public use', or the compensation was not 'fair' compared to other properties in the area.
 
:rolleyes:

Again, you are emoting and you are wrong. What Dix said was possible, is actually possible. You allow emotion to cloud everything, I'm sure it makes a great display in court, but it isn't working here.

You got emotional, tried to say another was "ignorant" and thought you'd get away with it, expecting nobody to speak out because of the unpopularity of the person you erroneously labeled. Even in your post it was clear it is possible for this to happen.

It is not posable because to do so would violate the 1st, hands down.... Nothing to do with emotion. To say otherwise is to display great ignorance.
 
It is not posable because to do so would violate the 1st, hands down.... Nothing to do with emotion. To say otherwise is to display great ignorance.

jarod, you're acting as if the courts can read the governments mind, but they don't care about that. It's only about the wording of the law to them.

take, for example, the healthcare bill. when it was first put to the public, the 'mandate' was offset by a 'penalty' for those that refused the mandate. Now that there is actually a court case, the 'penalty' is now a 'tax' simply to coincide with the commerce clause.

can you not see how that works? or are you going to be blinded by your simple naivete'?
 
It is not posable because to do so would violate the 1st, hands down.... Nothing to do with emotion. To say otherwise is to display great ignorance.
Utter rubbish. The only reason you say this is because of the crow bar stuffed into this by the extremists of both sides. It isn't "obvious" because there is controversy nor is controversy itself enough reason to "prove" that it violates anything, that is simply somebody trying to stuff emotion into it for spins sake.

If the government decided to take the property, even for so simple of a reason as to make more taxes, they could. It is possible, and you are desperately trying to spin out of possible into emotive nonsense with no more evidence than "Look! Here is controversy!"

Then, you attempt to drive that crow bar in further, to make it even more divisive with erroneous personal attacks, and when you are called out on them you write more sophomoric emotive nonsense.

Two things we know.

1. You called somebody who pointed out a possibility "ignorant".
2. You were called out on that with actual facts.
3. You tried to emote your way out of it by pointing out controversy.

and lastly...

4. You won't simply admit that your libelous remark was exactly that. It isn't ignorance to point out what is possible, especially when it actually is possible. Truth is the defense of an accusation of libel, we find that truth is not on your side.

Let's get down to actually talking about issues rather than attempting to emote all over my board with nonsense like this.
 
Would the U.S government ever allow an american billionaire to buy an island from another country and then declare themself king of the island. The U.S government can't tax foreign citizens. It would be far more expensive to purchase the soverignty of an island but it could be profitable. Also it would be fun to be a king. Do you think greece would be willing to sell one of their islands or would a billionaire have to find a third world country?
 
It is not posable because to do so would violate the 1st, hands down.... Nothing to do with emotion. To say otherwise is to display great ignorance.

It in no way is a possability, no court would ever allow it.

Eminent domain has NOTHING to do with the 1st Amendment! It has to do with the 5th Amendment, and I posted the exact legal criteria which must be met for an eminent domain taking. The property owner does have the right to due process, and appeal, but their charge would be to prove the intent of the state is not 'public interest' or compensation is not adequate. If that can't be proven, the state wins the ED case, there is no requirement they defend "true intent" or anything of the sort.

If the property owner wanted to file a separate civil suit for infringement of their constitutional rights in a federal court, they most certainly could do that, and THEN they might present evidence to show the "true intent" was not as stated in the ED proceedings. It would not have any effect on the ED taking, it wouldn't "save" the land from being taken, however, they might be able to retain some monetary reward above the amount received in the ED taking, if they could prove such a case.
 
Eminent domain has NOTHING to do with the 1st Amendment! It has to do with the 5th Amendment, and I posted the exact legal criteria which must be met for an eminent domain taking. The property owner does have the right to due process, and appeal, but their charge would be to prove the intent of the state is not 'public interest' or compensation is not adequate. If that can't be proven, the state wins the ED case, there is no requirement they defend "true intent" or anything of the sort.

If the property owner wanted to file a separate civil suit for infringement of their constitutional rights in a federal court, they most certainly could do that, and THEN they might present evidence to show the "true intent" was not as stated in the ED proceedings. It would not have any effect on the ED taking, it wouldn't "save" the land from being taken, however, they might be able to retain some monetary reward above the amount received in the ED taking, if they could prove such a case.

Pure Ignorance!

You are FLAT out WRONG.

Maybe you should start practicing law, see how WRONG you are.
 
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