Show us in the Bible where the apostles had the same vision as Paul did on the road to Damascus.
So you believe that mystical visions may be true? You seem overly credulous.
So why didn't Paul write about that?
Ignorance and the Bible
- Thread starter domer76
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Show us in the Bible where the apostles had the same vision as Paul did on the road to Damascus.
So you believe that mystical visions may be true? You seem overly credulous.
So why didn't Paul write about that?
Perry.
I'm pretty dumb when it comes to the stock market, macroeconomics, professional baseball, so I avoid those threads and don't try to frantically Google my way through them!
Still not familiar with the epistles, even after parading around and claiming you are knowledgeable about Christianity?
Corinthians. Jesus appeared to all of them.
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also"
I'm agnostic about what happened to Paul. Whatever happened, he was willing to suffer and die for it. Which is pretty weird since he was a Pharisee and had been committed to oppressing and punishing Christians.
You're using circular reasoning. You assume the supernatural and transcendent don't exist, and on the basis of that conclude the apostles were hallucinating. You are in a small minority on the planet who believes in strict physical materialism.
He did write about it. He interpreted as a reappearance of the resurrected Christ.
My theory is mine, and mine alone.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
No. As you’ve often pointed out, Paul never meet Jesus. He converted after a “vision” while on the road to arrest Christians. Since I don’t believe in magic nor divine intervention, what would cause such a vision if it happened today? Maybe he ate some bad mushrooms, but ergot in the bread is a natural albeit accidental cause strong enough to cause a “vision”. The fact he seemed normal afterwards tells me it wasn’t mental illness.
Which is why I agree it wasn't mental illness.
Agreed that surviving the crucifixion seems the most likely explanation for the “resurrection” even if he died of infection a few weeks/days later. Paul’s conversion is different than those of the Doubting Thomas. While it’s possible Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, why would he lie about the circumstances? IMO, he wouldn’t. He had what 1st Century people would call a “vision” and I would call something within the realm of the natural universe.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
That’s my thought. Similar personality, immature, desperately needs attention, wants to be seen as a PhD graduate and is a pathological liar.
He’s an idiot who probably still lives with his mother. Not out of love, but because he’s unable to live on his own.
It seems unlikely to me that a mushroom would cause a Pharisee who was committed and enthusiastic about suppressing and punishing Christians, to immediately change to someone who was willing to suffer and die for the belief in Christ.
I think there's possibly more to the story than we are aware of. We only have a tiny, tiny, small fraction of what the Christians were writing in the first century. And I'm sure not everything Paul wrote survived.
The reason I assume this is because I've never seen any demonstration of the supernatural or transcendent that I couldn't explain using non-supernatural explanations.
Because 100% of the "mystical visions" I've ever heard of were hallucinations.
Just because you believe in magic doesn't mean I am wrong. This is the usual fallacy-du-jour: "argumentum ad populum".
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
If he knew it was a drug, agreed. If it was accidental poisoning, a strong, acid-like vision might convince people they met Jesus, saw a God, Vishnu, etc. Not the first time someone has had such a religious experience.
Agreed, but the New Testament is mainly Paul’s writings. I suspect all the good stuff was kept.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Well...you might try supporting your comment with the TRUTH...because you are full of shit about arriving at your atheism by a lack of belief.
You are an atheist because you either BELIEVE...
a) that there are no gods...
b) that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one god.
You know you are full of shit...
...or you would answer my questions about these two things.
So...since you falsely claim you are where you are because of a lack of belief...
...tell us definitively that you do not BELIEVE that there are no gods...or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one god.
C'mon. Do it. Do it. DO IT!
How does a lack of belief equate to a belief?
Answer the questions you have been studiously avoiding for weeks now...
...and you will have your answer.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
He won’t because he can’t. Too immature. Maybe in 15 years. There’s always hope! Keep the faith!
He won't for another reason also.He won’t because he can’t. Too immature. Maybe in 15 years. There’s always hope! Keep the faith!
I'll wait him out.
Possibly. But I think there is some information we are missing about what happened to Paul. I don't know anybody who had a drug or alcohol induced hallucination who didn't realize it later, even people who had their drinks spiked with LSD involuntarily without their knowledge.If he knew it was a drug, agreed. If it was accidental poisoning, a strong, acid-like vision might convince people they met Jesus, saw a God, Vishnu, etc. Not the first time someone has had such a religious experience.
Agreed, but the New Testament is mainly Paul’s writings. I suspect all the good stuff was kept.
Then there is the strange fact that he went from an enthusiastic Christian-persecuting Pharisee overnight to a person willing to die for belief in Christ. I mean, this guy was willing to endure beatings, stonings, whippings, shipwrecks, pirates, imprisonment, and finally execution by the State.
The surviving testimony of Paul seems to be mostly important for Christian belief, practice, ethics, theology. Paul talks about himself at a personal level not very much. He might have written letters to friends which don't survive, or had discussions which were not written down, elaborating more on his personal experience and the motivations for his life transformation.
And that never happens. People never die for false beliefs.
Waco
Heaven's Gate
Jonestown
Order of the Solar Temple
Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments
Adam's Cult in Bangladesh
Yeah, they do. And I am making a sincere effort to get you to tell us that you do not have belief that there are no gods...and that you do not have belief that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.
You have been ducking that inquiry for weeks now.
Answer the questions.
How does the lack of a belief equate to a belief?
It doesn't.
What does that have to do with what we are discussing?
C'mon, Child, you know the jig is up. You can see that your story does not compute.
Sure you are able to fool the morons you hang out with...but, ya know, it is not going to work here.
You do NOT have a lack of "belief" and you know it.
But do continue to pretend otherwise. It is so transparent even your friends can see that. And getting you to continue to pretend is what I am aiming at.
So...