I am dissapointed in President Obama.

bravo said:
These are facts....

The WAR RESOLUTION was debated and passed by Congress.....a bi-partisan vote I might add.....it could not have passed without the approving votes of some Democrats

The warnings about Saddam and WMD and how he must be stopped were prevalent during the Clinton Admin. and if you need the quotes of various Democrats of the time

posted again and again and again, I still have them...

Thats history....
Click to expand...


And I still have the Downing Street memo showing that bush's reasons for invading were as phony as a three-dollar bill.

"The Downing Street "Memo" is actually the minutes of a meeting, transcribed during a gathering of many of the British Prime Minister's senior ministers on July 23, 2002. Published by The Sunday Times on May 1, 2005 this document was the first hard evidence from within the UK or US governments that exposed the truth about how the Iraq war began.

Since that time, much more information has come to light through leaks of secret government documents and the accounts of an increasing number of people who have witnessed the administration’s wrongdoing firsthand."


There is now in the public record a large body of evidence that vividly illustrates:


 
Superfreak said:
Congress is given the same intel briefings as the President. The intel does not come from the President, it comes from the intel agencies.
Click to expand...

The president controlls the process by which the evidence is collected. Those who belived in a view consistant with what Cheney was looking for were promoted, those who did not were removed from the process of collecting information.
 
christiefan915 said:
History in a nutshell is that Congress approved the war based on phony, ginned-up information provided by bush.
Click to expand...

Well, Pinny...Bush isn't in the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and
publish the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush and EVERY President use to base decisions on.....

Now read that over again until it penetrates your rather thick skull......

If that didn't work, try this,

In simpler terms....Bush provided NONE, NADA, NO intelligence to anyone.....intelligence was provided to him by the appropriate agencys of the US government.....

Re-read as required.....
 
Superfreak said:
Congress is given the same intel briefings as the President. The intel does not come from the President, it comes from the intel agencies.
Click to expand...

Reality check.

Congress had access to the same intel as Bush and they approved the invasion
On October 10, 2002, Congress voted to approve the use of force against Iraq. The President has indicated on several occasions that members of Congress had access to the same intelligence his administration had, and made their choice on the basis of this information. What is less known is the fact that what Congress was given bore little resemblance to the detailed reports the Bush administration was reading.


Senator Bob Graham, in his book, recounts a Sept 5, 2002 meeting he and Senators Durbin and Levin had with then CIA director George Tenet and his staff. Though the administration had long before decided on invasion, to the senators' amazement no National Intelligence Estimate for Iraq had yet been produced. Graham, Durbin and Levin demanded to see one, and three weeks later Tenet produced a 90-page document rife with caveats and qualifications (though these were buried in footnotes) about what we knew--or didn't know--about WMD in Iraq.


That report was classified, and as such was available only to those on the House and Senate intelligence committees. Graham pressed for it to be declassified, and got what he asked for on Oct 4--less than a week before Congress was to vote on the use of force. However, this declassified version was more like a marketing brochure: 20 pages in length, slickly produced with splashy grahics and maps, and with none of the caveats contained in the original. Graham described it later as "a vivid and terrifying case for war."


This 20-page, unqualified summary was presented to our senators and representatives as the best information on Iraq's WMDs, and it was provided to them one week before the vote on the use of force. The intelligence material Congress had was what the administration was willing to give them, namely a promotional piece whose lies of omission outweighed what was included.

http://downingstreetmemo.com/realitycheck.html
 
bravo said:
Well, Pinny...Bush isn't in the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and
publish the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush and EVERY President use to base decisions on.....

Now read that over again until it penetrates your rather thick skull......

If that didn't work, try this,

In simpler terms....Bush provided NONE, NADA, NO intelligence to anyone.....intelligence was provided to him by the appropriate agencys of the US government.....

Re-read as required.....
Click to expand...

Read post 104, dimwit.
 
Here's the scoop with Iraq - and this is really all anyone needs to know:

When Saddam's statue fell, Bush was a God to the GOP. They were cackling on every single cable show about how Democrats were "on the wrong side of history," and praising Bush for making the tough call in the face of so much opposition.

Now, given the history of Iraq as one of our most profound foriegn policy blunders, there is credit going around everywhere. Dems in Congress, Clinton, Dem politicians throughout the '90's who were apparently chomping at the bit for war. Why, Bush was practically a bystander - what could he do in the face of so much pressure from Congress to launch a full-scale invasion?

Fact: Bush made the call. After 9/11, he said "get me something on Iraq." He told Dick Armey they'd exhaust every diplomatic option before even considering the use of force. British intelligence said that the "intel was being fixed around the policy." A Senate subcommittee concluded that pre-war intel was manipulated. Colin Powell's top aide said he was given a "chinese menu" of intel and told to make a case for war.
 
bravo said:
Well, Pinny...Bush isn't in the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and
publish the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush and EVERY President use to base decisions on.....

Now read that over again until it penetrates your rather thick skull......

If that didn't work, try this,

In simpler terms....Bush provided NONE, NADA, NO intelligence to anyone.....intelligence was provided to him by the appropriate agencys of the US government.....

Re-read as required.....
Click to expand...


Bush was fully responsable for the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and
publish the National Intelligence Estimate. Look into how involved Cheney was in the process of collecting the data and how he pushed specific theories over others based on how they strengthened the case for war.
 
Onceler said:
Would you accept bravo's characterization that Congress forced Bush's hand on war, and that it was called the "war resolution"?
Click to expand...

bravo's characterization that Congress forced Bush's hand on war ???

I said this where ?.....that Congress forced Bush's hand.....

If anything, Bush forced Congress's hand by asking for their support, for a definite vote, yes or no, to use force against Iraq.....in other words, he told Congress, "shit or get off the pot"......

Try reading the "IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION".....google it....

The Iraq Resolution or the Iraq War Resolution (formally the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, Pub.L. 107-243, 116 Stat.
 
bravo said:
bravo's characterization that Congress forced Bush's hand on war ???

I said this where ?.....that Congress forced Bush's hand.....

If anything, Bush forced Congress's hand by asking for their support, for a definite vote, yes or no, to use force against Iraq.....in other words, he told Congress, "shit or get off the pot"......

Try reading the "IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION".....google it....

The Iraq Resolution or the Iraq War Resolution (formally the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, Pub.L. 107-243, 116 Stat.
Click to expand...

Bravs - once again: it was not called the "war resolution."
 
Jarod said:
Bush was fully responsable for the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and
publish the National Intelligence Estimate. Look into how involved Cheney was in the process of collecting the data and how he pushed specific theories over others based on how they strengthened the case for war.
Click to expand...

Your opinion and partisan spin won't change the facts.....Bush did not collect any intelligence , nor did Cheney or any other member of the executive branch...

Intell is collected by professional agents, thousands of them, "spies"....

You think all of them got orders from Cheney or Bush on what to say.....thousands of agents just did what you imagine Bush ordered....

Are you really an adult.....do you believe in UFO's, ghosts, the tooth fairy......that Bush blew up the WT Center....caused Freddie and Fannie to fail, cause high gas prices, etc.
 
christiefan915 said:
Really? Cite your source for that, so I can catch up.
Click to expand...

Bush did not collect any intelligence , nor did Cheney or any other member of the executive branch...

Intell is collected by professional agents, thousands of them, "spies"....

Bush isn't in the CIA, FBI or a member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and publish the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush and EVERY President use to base decisions on.....

In simpler terms....Bush provided NONE, NADA, NO intelligence to anyone.....intelligence was provided to him by the appropriate agencys of the US government.....

You need a source for these facts ?


Where is your source ?...other than left-wing blogs....




AS Jarod, Onceler and Christiefan fade away in the sunset..........................................
 
Last edited:
bravo said:
Bush did not collect any intelligence , nor did Cheney or any other member of the executive branch...

Intell is collected by professional agents, thousands of them, "spies"....

Bush isn't in the CIA, FBI or an member or agent of any of the 16 intelligence agencys that gather, study, and analyze intelligence and publish the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush and EVERY President use to base decisions on.....

In simpler terms....Bush provided NONE, NADA, NO intelligence to anyone.....intelligence was provided to him by the appropriate agencys of the US government.....

You need a source for these facts ?


Where is your source ?...other than left-wing blogs....
Click to expand...

I asked you for a source that disputes the Downing Street memo. You've provided nothing except the same old talking points. As for my source (one of many):

• As originally reported in the The Sunday Times, May 1, 2005 SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY
DAVID MANNING
From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 /02
cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell
IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY
Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.
This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.
John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.
C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:
(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).
(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.
The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:
(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.
(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.
(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.

The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions. For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary. The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.
John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.
The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:
(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.
(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.
(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.
(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.
He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.
(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.
(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.
(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)
MATTHEW RYCROFT
(Rycroft was a Downing Street foreign policy aide)

http://downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html
 
christiefan915 said:
Reality check.

Congress had access to the same intel as Bush and they approved the invasion
On October 10, 2002, Congress voted to approve the use of force against Iraq. The President has indicated on several occasions that members of Congress had access to the same intelligence his administration had, and made their choice on the basis of this information. What is less known is the fact that what Congress was given bore little resemblance to the detailed reports the Bush administration was reading.


Senator Bob Graham, in his book, recounts a Sept 5, 2002 meeting he and Senators Durbin and Levin had with then CIA director George Tenet and his staff. Though the administration had long before decided on invasion, to the senators' amazement no National Intelligence Estimate for Iraq had yet been produced. Graham, Durbin and Levin demanded to see one, and three weeks later Tenet produced a 90-page document rife with caveats and qualifications (though these were buried in footnotes) about what we knew--or didn't know--about WMD in Iraq.


That report was classified, and as such was available only to those on the House and Senate intelligence committees. Graham pressed for it to be declassified, and got what he asked for on Oct 4--less than a week before Congress was to vote on the use of force. However, this declassified version was more like a marketing brochure: 20 pages in length, slickly produced with splashy grahics and maps, and with none of the caveats contained in the original. Graham described it later as "a vivid and terrifying case for war."


This 20-page, unqualified summary was presented to our senators and representatives as the best information on Iraq's WMDs, and it was provided to them one week before the vote on the use of force. The intelligence material Congress had was what the administration was willing to give them, namely a promotional piece whose lies of omission outweighed what was included.

http://downingstreetmemo.com/realitycheck.html
Click to expand...

While it is true not all Senate and House members have the same access... the members of the House and Senate commitees on Intelligence have access to all of the raw data. The consistent bullshit that they can only receive what the President allows them to see is nothing short of partisan hackery and an attempt to blame someone else for their actions. The President does not have that power. Period.
 
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