Hey Jarod.....

David St. Hubbins said:
Europe is imploding. That's why we're seeing this crash coupled with the flight to treasuries. The debt deal isn't helping, but it isn't really hurting all that much either.

On the stimulus, at the time it was enacted 2008 3rd and 4th quarter GDP figures were believed to be -0.5% and -3.8% respectively. In reality, GDP shrank by -3.7% and -8.9%. To put those numbers in perspective, if the errors were in the other direction (towards the positive side), GDP would have grown by 3.2% and 5.1%, respectively, which is strong growth. Under those circumstances, it's no wonder the stimulus didn't bring out the results predicted.
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Must PROVIDE EXCUSES for Obama.....

ROFLMAO... while the above is accurate in terms of the revision of the 'advanced' estimate, the first actual estimate of 6.4% decline in the fourth quarter was known ten days after Obama passed it. The One failed in many ways... the first was that he rushed the bill to show 'I'm doing stuff'. Second, he had a majority in both houses, yet KNOWING that the advanced estimate was off, he didn't do anything to increase the amount of the stimulus a few short weeks later. Third, he absolutely failed in HOW the funds were distributed.

He succeeded as much as stopping the bleeding, but he failed to achieve ANY of the long term gains the stimulus could have provided if enacted as he should have.
 
David St. Hubbins said:
My point is actually much simpler than that: "federal fiscal policy" is not "the President's fiscal policy," particularly where "federal fiscal policy" results from high-stakes negotiations between the president and the opposing party where government shutdowns and the global economy are on the line and the negotiated "federal fiscal policy" is very different from the President's expressed preferred policies.
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The opposing party has only had power for a short period of time. I know you Dems love to simply point the finger and blame the Reps whether they are in the majority, the minority, or shared power positions, but enough is enough. The debt situation is not the problem. It is the insane levels of spending OBAMA is doing along with his Dem leadership in Congress that is the problem.

Do keep in mind... the Dems had COMPLETE control. They could have raised the debt ceiling before the Reps took control of the House. They could have passed a budget in the Senate. Instead the Dems chose to play games with our economy, because it suited them politically.

IT most certainly IS Obama's fiscal policy that is killing us. HIS budget idea would have been disastrous. THAT is the lack of leadership and ineptitude we all warned you Obamamaniacs about.
 
Onceler said:
I don't get it when people say "the failed stimulus." The stimulus did what I thought it would - it stopped the bleeding. I think people forget how badly things were spiraling at that time.

The debt plan started the bleeding again, though...
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do explain how it is the debt plan started this bleeding.
 
David St. Hubbins said:
Obama doesn't unilaterally set federal fiscal policy, jackass. If he did, then maybe you'd have a point. Maybe you don't recall it, but the House Republicans first threatened to shut down the government if cuts were not made in 2011 and Obama agreed to some of the cuts the Republicans wanted in 2011. Then the Republicans threatened to blow up the global economy if spending cuts were not made in the future and Obama agreed to some of those cuts. That's not "Obama's fiscal policy," that's the fiscal policy of the federal government.

One particular item that the economist mentioned what the payroll tax holiday. Obama proposed extending it. The Republicans opposed it. According to this economist, Obama's fiscal policy -- extending the payroll tax holiday -- would improve GDP figures. And there are other stimulus measures that are expiring, such as unemployment benefit extensions, that Republicans oppose and Obama supports. In short, pretending that "federal fiscal policies" = "Obama's fiscal policies" is horseshit. It is the Republican components of federal fiscal policy -- cutting spending and no more stimulus -- that are a drag on the economy.
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You must have missed this pertinent FACT./...Democrats own 2/3 of the government....nothing can be done against their will.....
 
The Dude said:
ok we are not in recession we are growing, we tried retarded stimulation and it failed miserabley.

Bravo, I'm a bit of an old crank when I lose $40,000 in a day.
Feels like the flash crash, I'd blame market manipulation more than the gov. Nothing happened today to trigger this.
However, did a GS short yestarday and are they buying tomorrow?
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.....a week after I retired I lost about 85 K in one afternoon.....You'll got over it like I had to....the money was only on paper and I never held in my hand....

You don't make shit until you sell and get that check.....but I was pissed also...and had the good sense to become even more conservative after that.....

What triggered this is the culmination of government over spending because of creeping socialism....plain and simple....
 
Onceler said:
I don't get it when people say "the failed stimulus." The stimulus did what I thought it would - it stopped the bleeding. I think people forget how badly things were spiraling at that time.

The debt plan started the bleeding again, though...
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I don't understand how a person of normal intelligence can buy into this crap...it stopped the bleeding ?...OH, dear...think about what might have happened without the stimulus....

You have no crystal ball to imagine what might have happened under different scenarios...its pure guessing, its fiction, its make believe.....this Chris Mattews, Keith Olbernamm, Bill Maher, coulda , woulda, mighta, stuff is just crap for the lemmings....something you MUST accept to remain a Democrat (not a liberal, but a Democrat).

Its just as valid the say the stimulus was money wasted that just contributed to the overall debt crunch we are in right now....causing even bigger problems for the long term....used to buy more votes....a payoff to unions, etc....
 
bravo said:
I don't understand how a person of normal intelligence can buy into this crap...it stopped the bleeding ?...OH, dear...think about what might have happened without the stimulus....

You have no crystal ball to imagine what might have happened under different scenarios...its pure guessing, its fiction, its make believe.....this Chris Mattews, Keith Olbernamm, Bill Maher, coulda , woulda, mighta, stuff is just crap for the lemmings....something you MUST accept to remain a Democrat (not a liberal, but a Democrat).

Its just as valid the say the stimulus was money wasted that just contributed to the overall debt crunch we are in right now....causing even bigger problems for the long term....used to buy more votes....a payoff to unions, etc....
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Not if you understand even an inkling about economics. No one was spending anything when the stimulus passed; they were too afraid. How do you break that cycle? Tax cuts? Right.

You are extremely economically illiterate. I have seen enough of your posting on this matter to know that you understand nothing about it, zilch. You shouldn't partake in any discussion about it, because your knowledge is so lacking, but I expect that you will.

Yes - it stopped the bleeding. Indisputably.
 
What is sad is that I believe the Republicans do understand economics.... and are trying to prevent much of a recovery until after Nov of 12'.
 
bravo said:
Down another 350 points today......buy, buy, buy......sell your house and buy, buy, buy...

Invest in the "hope and change" thingy.....:):):)
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Funny, you have been waiting how long to start this thread... three years?

In the mean time I made 20% last year and even for this year!
 
Onceler said:
Not if you understand even an inkling about economics. No one was spending anything when the stimulus passed; they were too afraid. How do you break that cycle? Tax cuts? Right.

You are extremely economically illiterate. I have seen enough of your posting on this matter to know that you understand nothing about it, zilch. You shouldn't partake in any discussion about it, because your knowledge is so lacking, but I expect that you will.

Yes - it stopped the bleeding. Indisputably.
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It has nothing to do with understanding economics....its has everything to do with making believe you know what would have positively happened if....

YOU DON'T FUCKIN' KNOW....you will never know, you can't possibly know.....you can only guess, you can only believe, believe, as a partisan hack must.....believe what you must to satisfy your own perspective....and bias....

as a child believes in Santa and the Easter Bunny....its the same mindset....
 
Jarod said:
Funny, you have been waiting how long to start this thread... three years?

In the mean time I made 20% last year and even for this year!
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You should have done better....but
I'm so happy for you anyway.....now listen...sell your house and your car....and buy "change" and then buy "hope".....

You'll be sitting pretty....
 
Fuck that shit stimulus fags. Agh I'm mean keynsians. we should have taken our medicine then. Let those asshole fail. We sent billions to snake oil salesman in both parties. Now the price is tree fold higher. Instead of a walstreet recession we have a country wide one.
 
Superfreak said:
The opposing party has only had power for a short period of time. I know you Dems love to simply point the finger and blame the Reps whether they are in the majority, the minority, or shared power positions, but enough is enough. The debt situation is not the problem. It is the insane levels of spending OBAMA is doing along with his Dem leadership in Congress that is the problem.

Do keep in mind... the Dems had COMPLETE control. They could have raised the debt ceiling before the Reps took control of the House. They could have passed a budget in the Senate. Instead the Dems chose to play games with our economy, because it suited them politically.

IT most certainly IS Obama's fiscal policy that is killing us. HIS budget idea would have been disastrous. THAT is the lack of leadership and ineptitude we all warned you Obamamaniacs about.
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But present and near-term federal fiscal policy, the stuff the analyst was talking about, is not "Obama's fiscal policy." It is a negotiated fiscal policy. And the economist stated that more stimulus, including a payroll tax holiday, which Obama supports and the Republicans do not, would improve economic output. So when you say "Obama's fiscal policy is a drag on the economy" that is contrary to the views of the chief US economic analyst at JP Morgan Chase, among others.

I'm fine with disagreement about it, but don't pretend that your opinion is the truth, or the only opinion or even the mainstream economic opinion. It isn't.
 
David St. Hubbins said:
But present and near-term federal fiscal policy, the stuff the analyst was talking about, is not "Obama's fiscal policy." It is a negotiated fiscal policy. And the economist stated that more stimulus, including a payroll tax holiday, which Obama supports and the Republicans do not, would improve economic output. So when you say "Obama's fiscal policy is a drag on the economy" that is contrary to the views of the chief US economic analyst at JP Morgan Chase, among others.

I'm fine with disagreement about it, but don't pretend that your opinion is the truth, or the only opinion or even the mainstream economic opinion. It isn't.
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who owned the fiscal policy for 2008-2009?
 
The Dude said:
Fuck that shit stimulus fags. Agh I'm mean keynsians. we should have taken our medicine then. Let those asshole fail. We sent billions to snake oil salesman in both parties. Now the price is tree fold higher. Instead of a walstreet recession we have a country wide one.
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Your timeline is pretty fucked. By the time TARP was enacted we were already nine or ten months into a recession. Acting like the recession would have been confined to Wall Street in the absence of TARP when the country was already well into a recession that was peaking at the time of the financial crisis is fucking asinine.

Having said that, I think we'd all have been better off if instead of just giving money to the banks the money was given to homeowners to pay down the principal on their shitty loans. The money would have still gone to the fuckwit bankers, but consumers would have deleveraged a bit, giving them more money to spend on new products and services, not debt.
 
If you are going to do a payroll tax holiday, don do a gay Dixie 1/3. Do the whole fucking enchilada. Bailout the tax payer finally.
 
Onceler said:
Not if you understand even an inkling about economics. No one was spending anything when the stimulus passed; they were too afraid. How do you break that cycle? Tax cuts? Right.

You are extremely economically illiterate. I have seen enough of your posting on this matter to know that you understand nothing about it, zilch. You shouldn't partake in any discussion about it, because your knowledge is so lacking, but I expect that you will.

Yes - it stopped the bleeding. Indisputably.
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the broken record....i don't even need to view your posts to know what you will say
 
The Dude said:
If you are going to do a payroll tax holiday, don do a gay Dixie 1/3. Do the whole fucking enchilada. Bailout the tax payer finally.
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Well, the Republicans won't agree to anything so you ain't even getting the 2%. Think about that. Republicans refusing to agree to a tax cut. That's how you know they're intentionally sabotaging the economy. When in modern history have the Republicans ever said no to a tax cut?
 
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