Healthcare mandate: Union style

Whether doctors have a clue or not is irrelevant. Let's assume that all doctors in the United States utilize the exact same definition of "defensive medicine" and know the exact percentage of their practice that meets that definition. Assume that to be true for purposes of argument. Even in that case, conducting a survey of doctors in the United States is not a legitimate research tool to find out the cost of defensive medicine.

Bottom line... the above is nonsense. To say it is irrelevant whether doctors have a clue is absurd. I can't tell you to the penny, but I can provide a good estimate on my practice in terms of where revenues and fees are generated from. Doctors can do the same with their practices.
 
Bottom line... the above is nonsense. To say it is irrelevant whether doctors have a clue is absurd. I can't tell you to the penny, but I can provide a good estimate on my practice in terms of where revenues and fees are generated from. Doctors can do the same with their practices.


My primary issue is with the methodology. There are almost 700,000 doctors in the United States. Surveying 3,000 of them isn't going to reliably tell you jack shit about doctors generally from which you can make bold pronouncements about the costs of defensive medicine.

And again, this assumes that they all use the same definition of the term "defensive medicine" and all know how much "defensive medicine" they practice, which is another huge problem with conducting such a survey.
 
My primary issue is with the methodology. There are almost 700,000 doctors in the United States. Surveying 3,000 of them isn't going to reliably tell you jack shit about doctors generally from which you can make bold pronouncements about the costs of defensive medicine.

And again, this assumes that they all use the same definition of the term "defensive medicine" and all know how much "defensive medicine" they practice, which is another huge problem with conducting such a survey.

My god you are a dolt....

So we can't get good intel from a survey of 3k of 700k, but surveys regarding politics can produce reliable results when we take 1k of 300 million as a sample? You are an idiot if you think that is the case.

Again, a doctor understands what defensive medicine is you dolt. If you don't think they know what NEEDs to be done vs. what is done to cover their ass from potential lawsuits, then you again should not be discussing this topic as you have no clue what you are talking about.

Now... back to your claims.... still no links or data? still going to just pretend we should take your word for it... clearly if you have provided the data before you know exactly where to go to get it. Quit ducking and running like a coward and back up your claim. Show us what the ACCOUNTANTS think.
 
My god you are a dolt....

So we can't get good intel from a survey of 3k of 700k, but surveys regarding politics can produce reliable results when we take 1k of 300 million as a sample? You are an idiot if you think that is the case.

Again, a doctor understands what defensive medicine is you dolt. If you don't think they know what NEEDs to be done vs. what is done to cover their ass from potential lawsuits, then you again should not be discussing this topic as you have no clue what you are talking about.

Now... back to your claims.... still no links or data? still going to just pretend we should take your word for it... clearly if you have provided the data before you know exactly where to go to get it. Quit ducking and running like a coward and back up your claim. Show us what the ACCOUNTANTS think.


1) Surveys and polls are different things.

2) Polls that use terms that different people define differently are useless.

3) Everyone understands the concept of defensive medicine but different doctors may have different standards for what constitutes defensive medicine in practice. Some doctors may think that ordering confirmatory tests constitute defensive medicine whereas others do not. Unless you have a standard definition of the term that every doctor surveyed employs in answering the survey, the results are useless.

4) http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf
 
NO, I didn't. The only 'propaganda' is you telling me WHAT I said.
I responded to exactly what you said.
'For profit' health insurance will never fit in a market based model. The incentives for increasing profit are all catastrophic for customers. The model is to collect years of premiums and then deny payment for coverage.
Now, either you are an oversized donkey shit eating liar, or ignorant beyond all comprehension. (or both) The MODEL of ANY insurance is to balance premiums against obligations, plus profit. They are not going to get ANY premiums if they provide shitty service. Therefore, you claims are utterly without ANY merit. They do NOT (you fucking liar) base their model of DENYING coverage. That is the LIE you keep spouting. Is that by design (liar?) are through donkey butt kissing ignorance?


It is not about 'numbers', it is about human beings. If you believe denials are acceptable then it should be no problem for YOU to stand in their place and be faced with the most life threatening illness in your life, AND the most economical crisis at the same time. Try to face dying and bankruptcy at the same time.
So, making insurance coverage MORE expensive so the very people who supported Obamacare prefer to get waivers so they can stay under the bad old nasty private insurance you lie about, THAT is the "FIX" you support? Pull your head out of the donkey's ass for a few seconds, the anoxia is making you the fool.

OTOH, maybe if we look at what is causing medical expenses to rise far and above the inflation rate (like government regulations up the fucking yang on anything and everything remotely connected to medicine), and FIX what is actually CAUSING the health care crisis, then good, comprehensive medical insurance would be affordable for more people, AND it would be easier for assistance programs to cover the rest.

But NO! FIXING the problem would eliminate the excuse to put mommy government in charge, and we MUST have government in charge.
 
1) Surveys and polls are different things.

2) Polls that use terms that different people define differently are useless.

3) Everyone understands the concept of defensive medicine but different doctors may have different standards for what constitutes defensive medicine in practice. Some doctors may think that ordering confirmatory tests constitute defensive medicine whereas others do not. Unless you have a standard definition of the term that every doctor surveyed employs in answering the survey, the results are useless.

4) http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf

wow... what a shock... we get no data from the left... just a summary. so no way to check it....

Bottom line, your link just showed what government accountants think. No support.
 
1) Surveys and polls are different things.

2) Polls that use terms that different people define differently are useless.

3) Everyone understands the concept of defensive medicine but different doctors may have different standards for what constitutes defensive medicine in practice. Some doctors may think that ordering confirmatory tests constitute defensive medicine whereas others do not. Unless you have a standard definition of the term that every doctor surveyed employs in answering the survey, the results are useless.

4) http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10641/10-09-Tort_Reform.pdf

The Office of Technology Assessment (OTA), a former Congressional research agency, used the term defensive medicine as an umbrella term, subdividing it into “positive” and “negative” defensive medicine. OTA defined positive defensive medicine as including “extra tests or procedures [conducted] primarily to reduce malpractice liability,” with negative defensive medicine including procedures or patients avoided by physicians out of fear of liability.

The above is how the government accountants define defensive medicine. so if they are using it to mean "any extra tests of procedures conducted primarily to reduce malpractice liability".... then if anything the doctors are UNDERSTATING the percent of defensive medicine. they know it is the CYA tests etc... which is the same way the CBO defines it.

Bottom line... you are grasping at straws.
 
The above is how the government accountants define defensive medicine. so if they are using it to mean "any extra tests of procedures conducted primarily to reduce malpractice liability".... then if anything the doctors are UNDERSTATING the percent of defensive medicine. they know it is the CYA tests etc... which is the same way the CBO defines it.

Bottom line... you are grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at anything. I'm merely relying on the Congressional Budget Office who was asked to assess the effects of tort reform on medical costs by Republicans interested in adopting tort reform and which explained the sources it used in reaching its conclusions. Those sources are available to you if you want to pay to read them.

You, on the other hand, have started with a conclusion "defensive medicine is a large component of high health care costs" and then look for sources to justify your claim. The only thing you have turned up is a report about a survey of doctors without any information whatsoever regarding the manner in which the survey was conducted, the questions the survey asked, the manner in which the survey participants were selected, the response rate of doctors surveyed or any other information regarding the validity or reliability of the information the doctors reported.

Under the circumstances, you ought not quibble with what you believe to be a speck in my eye.
 
I responded to exactly what you said.

Now, either you are an oversized donkey shit eating liar, or ignorant beyond all comprehension. (or both) The MODEL of ANY insurance is to balance premiums against obligations, plus profit. They are not going to get ANY premiums if they provide shitty service. Therefore, you claims are utterly without ANY merit. They do NOT (you fucking liar) base their model of DENYING coverage. That is the LIE you keep spouting. Is that by design (liar?) are through donkey butt kissing ignorance?



So, making insurance coverage MORE expensive so the very people who supported Obamacare prefer to get waivers so they can stay under the bad old nasty private insurance you lie about, THAT is the "FIX" you support? Pull your head out of the donkey's ass for a few seconds, the anoxia is making you the fool.

OTOH, maybe if we look at what is causing medical expenses to rise far and above the inflation rate (like government regulations up the fucking yang on anything and everything remotely connected to medicine), and FIX what is actually CAUSING the health care crisis, then good, comprehensive medical insurance would be affordable for more people, AND it would be easier for assistance programs to cover the rest.

But NO! FIXING the problem would eliminate the excuse to put mommy government in charge, and we MUST have government in charge.

Listen...if you are going to call me names, it would be a REAL good idea for you to have a pat hand...you DON'T...you didn't even READ what I posted. It is an interview with a 20 year executive at CIGNA who explains EXACTLY HOW the insurance corporations base their model.

Maybe you should wait for mommy to come home to help you, because you clearly are out of your league here sonny boy.


There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating - people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing.
Oscar Wilde
 
i don't know what planet you live on, but she would still be a 'queen' with a cock

freddie_mercury_live_at_wembley_stadion.jpg
 
Listen...if you are going to call me names, it would be a REAL good idea for you to have a pat hand...you DON'T...you didn't even READ what I posted. It is an interview with a 20 year executive at CIGNA who explains EXACTLY HOW the insurance corporations base their model.

Maybe you should wait for mommy to come home to help you, because you clearly are out of your league here sonny boy.


There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating - people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Actually I DID read what you posted. So what? It just shows where you got your lie from, since it is obvious you wouldn't make up a lie without your political master's expressed approval. You posted an interview of someone who says the exact same things you claim. Should I pull apart his mindless tripe piece by piece? I already pointed out the major fault with your fear mongering theory: insurance companies could not possibly stay in business under your supposed model. Just because you can find some donkey ass to tell you what to think does not make him - or you - correct. Your Claims that insurance companies BASE THERE MODEL ON DENYING CLAIMS is pure utter scare tactic liberal lying bullshit. It does not matter who or how many make or repeat that lie, it is still a lie. It is a lie told to demonize the insurance industry so brain dead government teat sucking whiners like you will support more and more and more government.

To bad your head is too far up the donkeys ass to recognize when your own ass is being filled with the donkey's dick.
 
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Actually I DID read what you posted. So what? It just shows where you got your lie from, since it is obvious you wouldn't make up a lie without your political master's expressed approval. You posted an interview of someone who says the exact same things you claim. Should I pull apart his mindless tripe piece by piece? I already pointed out the major fault with your fear mongering theory: insurance companies could not possibly stay in business under your supposed model. Just because you can find some donkey ass to tell you what to think does not make him - or you - correct. Your Claims that insurance companies BASE THERE MODEL ON DENYING CLAIMS is pure utter scare tactic liberal lying bullshit. It does not matter who or how many make or repeat that lie, it is still a lie. It is a lie told to demonize the insurance industry so brain dead government teat sucking whiners like you will support more and more and more government.

To bad your head is too far up the donkeys ass to recognize when your own ass is being filled with the donkey's dick.

Oh, why didn't you just say so...

its-a-conspiracy.jpg


Better go watch Faux News so you know what to say next pea brain...
 
True. Until we actually try to solve the problem of rising costs, the costs will indeed continue upward. The Obamacare plan does NOTHING to address rising costs and will instead increase the costs due to supply and demand.

Obamacare is a start. As it slowly morphs into a universal plan costs will come down. (More on this later on.)

It is not a universal plan that causes prices to go down. Unless of course that plan allows the government to restrict the services and determine what 'acceptable' procedures are.

Those universal plans in the industrialized countries are bankrupting their governments. Just as our system is.

As for per capita spending....

1. higher prices for the same health care goods and services than are paid in other countries for the same goods and services; (WE SUBSIDIZE a lot of costs so that third world countries can get better pricing... note... why is it that the same meds can be found in Canada and Mexico at far cheaper prices than in the US???)

Why? Because the governments in those countries negotiate with the drug companies. (If I recall your dear friend Bush refused to allow negotiations when he brought forth the drug plan for seniors.)

It’s basic business. Let’s say a government decides to pay for headache medication. It has a choice between Advil, made by Wyeth/Pfizer or Tylenol, made by Johnson & Johnson or Aspirin, made by Bayer. The government looks at the cost per dose and has a chat with the company rep.

Here’s the deal. Lower your price and we’ll pay for all the people requiring headache medication. If a person can obtain Advil at no charge under their med plan or pay out-of-pocket for Tylenol and Aspirin what is the average person going to use? Thus, the price goes down.

2. significantly higher administrative overhead costs than are incurred in other countries with simpler health-insurance systems; (This is an area we need to address. It is insanely stupid to have 50 sets of rules for insurance companies to follow. This does not mean we need a universal plan, but rather a standard set of rules)

A standard set of rules? For example??

Are insurance companies voluntarily going to use the same computers/programs so doctors can access medical files? Trying to get doctors to agree on anything country-wide would be next to impossible but it would be an excellent stalling tactic.

3. more widespread use of high-cost, high-tech equipment and procedures than are used in other countries; (something the left continually forgets when comparing costs per capita)

Apparently the high-tech equipment and procedures are not resulting in a longer life span.

4. higher treatment costs triggered by our uniquely American tort laws, which in the context of medicine can lead to “defensive medicine” — that is, the application of tests and procedures mainly as a defense against possible malpractice litigation, rather than as a clinical imperative. (without question our litigious society leads to wasteful defensive medical practices)

I’d be interested in seeing some figures as to exactly how much it increases costs. It seems the “cap the malpractice awards” is always thrown out as a solution when it is a minor contributor.

The article does wrap up with “There are three other explanations that are widely — but erroneously — thought among non-experts to be cost drivers in the American health spending. To wit:
1. that the aging of our population drives health spending
2. that we get better quality from our health system than do other nations, and
3. that we get better health outcomes from our system

People have to divest themselves of the idea their health care is superior to other nations. It is not, yet, that is constantly stated as fact even when study after study has shown citizens in countries with a universal plan have longer life spans and are adamant about keeping their government plan.

We can reduce health care costs and insurance premiums without the monstrosity of a governmental universal plan.

I suppose it’s theoretically possible but we all know it would never happen. The old, tired, worn out arguments are regurgitated until everyone experiences nausea and drops the discussion. A decade or two passes and someone picks up the ball. The same thing occurs and another decade or two passes. Meanwhile, generation after generation go without proper health care.

If it wasn’t so sad it would be comical to hear people talk about health care being rammed down their throats. Rammed? It’s been 45 years since Medicare/Medicaid and even longer since the idea of medical care was considered.

Is it any wonder why Obama took the approach of "just do it!"
 
Oh, why didn't you just say so...

its-a-conspiracy.jpg


Better go watch Faux News so you know what to say next pea brain...
LOL What a mindless dweeb you are. You pass on a DNC lie, and because you are caught at it, you try to pass off the recognition as a conspiracy theory. Good try.

Doesn't change the fact that accusing insurance companies of using "deny coverage" as a business model is a liberal anti-business, pro mommy government lie. And it does not change the fact that those who willing pass on such lies are, themselves, liars. Not conspirators, mind you. Just fucking yellow dog, say anything the DNC commands them to, head up the donkey's ass liars.
 
LOL What a mindless dweeb you are. You pass on a DNC lie, and because you are caught at it, you try to pass off the recognition as a conspiracy theory. Good try.

Doesn't change the fact that accusing insurance companies of using "deny coverage" as a business model is a liberal anti-business, pro mommy government lie. And it does not change the fact that those who willing pass on such lies are, themselves, liars. Not conspirators, mind you. Just fucking yellow dog, say anything the DNC commands them to, head up the donkey's ass liars.


But it isn't a lie. It is the way many of them do business. They do not make their money by paying claims:

Executives of three of the nation's largest health insurers told federal lawmakers in Washington on Tuesday that they would continue canceling medical coverage for some sick policyholders, despite withering criticism from Republican and Democratic members of Congress who decried the practice as unfair and abusive.

The hearing on the controversial action known as rescission, which has left thousands of Americans burdened with costly medical bills despite paying insurance premiums, began a day after President Obama outlined his proposals for revamping the nation's healthcare system.

An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that health insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the companies to avoid paying more than $300 million in medical claims over a five-year period.

It also found that policyholders with breast cancer, lymphoma and more than 1,000 other conditions were targeted for rescission and that employees were praised in performance reviews for terminating the policies of customers with expensive illnesses.


http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17
 
LOL What a mindless dweeb you are. You pass on a DNC lie, and because you are caught at it, you try to pass off the recognition as a conspiracy theory. Good try.

Doesn't change the fact that accusing insurance companies of using "deny coverage" as a business model is a liberal anti-business, pro mommy government lie. And it does not change the fact that those who willing pass on such lies are, themselves, liars. Not conspirators, mind you. Just fucking yellow dog, say anything the DNC commands them to, head up the donkey's ass liars.

The business model I described is being used by insurance corporations. It is not something that happens to every customer, but the insurance corporations are always looking for any excuse to deny claims, especially major claims that would require large payouts. They do use it and they pay people in their companies to search for any reason they can find to deny coverage. They also use rescission (canceling policies) and even dumping employer groups from the rolls.

You clearly have no understanding of the real world of business and how corporations operate. Health insurance corporations are NOT in the business of health care, they are in the business of profit. Corporations don’t have the same aspirations for America or for your family or for my family that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and it will do whatever works to get those profits. And that doesn’t mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they’re amoral, and we have to recognize that. If we don't it will be at OUR expense, not theirs.
 
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