have we missed an opportunity

blackascoal said:
I'll start from here and see if you can catch up ..

EVERY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION ON THE PLANET HAS NATIIONALIZED HEALTHCARE

.. except one.

I have much more .. but I'm going to work with you S L O W L Y.
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Keeping up with the Liberal Jones fallacy. That one industrial nation that doesn't have it is the best off in the world (guaged by desire to move to that country).
 
blackascoal said:
The program can be started with less money than we've already spent and with the same tax structure that is already planned.
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completely impossible, but if you have an outline, i'll look at it.

blackascoal said:
But, you're an intelligent guy .. I have a question that is deeply confusing to me. This country stands on the brink of financial disaster. We're throwing billions of dollars at people who caused the disaster, but when a proposal arises that could ..
a. Create tremendous employment and business opportunities.
b. Reinivigorate the economy, thus returning billions in lost tax dollars to states and the federal government.
c. Relieve American corporations of the burden of medical costs, thsu allowing them to compete with their foreign competeitors .. who do not pay medical costs.
d. Relieve that same burden from Americans, thus creating a more healthy society, thus make Americans less expensive.

and e, f, g, .. and so on.

In spite of that, the first thing that comes to mind from those on the right is taxes.

Please explain the intelligence of that?
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all economy runs off of consumerism. whether it's manufacturing or service that is offered, if nobody buys, no economy moves forward. You absolutely cannot get an economy to improve and strengthen unless the people can buy goods and services, otherwise it's just an exercise in futility. Trying to mitigate the costs of medical care as the linch pin to making the economy better is comparable to using a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
 
This sounds simplistic, but everything is too big. I'm amazed as I read about the origins of this crisis how a relatively few individuals and a few decisions here or there laid an almost irreversible foundation for a total meltdown. We don't have any mechanisms in place to monitor & keep a check on these processes, because they are too sprawling, and everything is stretched too thin. Most of the decisions made were based on individual greed & short-term benefit, and had little to do w/ the public good or with fiscal responsibility.

The system, as it currently stands, is a mess. Socialism & communism don't work, but at this point, neither does capitalism. Everything has to scale down. Ultimately, we'd be better off with regional governments & regional economies, but that probably seems pretty radical to most people right now.
 
Onceler said:
This sounds simplistic, but everything is too big. I'm amazed as I read about the origins of this crisis how a relatively few individuals and a few decisions here or there laid an almost irreversible foundation for a total meltdown. We don't have any mechanisms in place to monitor & keep a check on these processes, because they are too sprawling, and everything is stretched too thin. Most of the decisions made were based on individual greed & short-term benefit, and had little to do w/ the public good or with fiscal responsibility.

The system, as it currently stands, is a mess. Socialism & communism don't work, but at this point, neither does capitalism. Everything has to scale down. Ultimately, we'd be better off with regional governments & regional economies, but that probably seems pretty radical to most people right now.
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Yeah, radical. We could call it a Constitutional Republic and separate the regions into things we can call "states", those states can have specific powers different from the feds that are guaranteed to them, and those rights not given to the federation or to the states could belong to the individual.

It's a radical concept. It's no wonder nobody ever thought of it.

What I think would happen, is in about four score years or so there'd be a war that one side would win that would centralize everything and create a boondoggle of a huge thing...

But heck. We can't even imagine somebody thinking of regional areas not being subject to the centralized government, nobody could.

:rolleyes:
 
blackascoal said:
The opportunity we missed is putting every American on Medicaid .. thsu EXPLODING the healthcare industry .. thus creating millions of actual, long-lasting jobs that cannot be exported overseas .. thus relieving companies large and small of the burden of healthcare costs .. thus relieving Americans of medical costs, which is the leading cause of personal bankruptcy.

Could have done it, no courage.
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i think it is still on bho's agenda

but, instead of medicaid, how about medicare or health care as good as our congress critters get
 
Superfreak said:
You do not relieve Americans of medical costs. Whether they pay the facilities directly or the government taxes them and pays their healthcare, the public is still paying for it.

That said, if the system reduces the costs involved in healthcare, then you have a net savings to tax payers. Otherwise you are just changing HOW they pay for it.
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how about both

i think that one of the things proposed is putting all medical information in a database...the problem with that is privacy concerns, but it will help cheapen medical care

but you are correct, we still pay
 
SmarterThanYou said:
tsk tsk. do you really mean to tell us that apportioning medical expenses among the tax paying population wouldn't raise taxes at all?
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you pay now or later, but you pay

the purpose of such insurance is cover catastrophic occurances for all and to spread the load for those needing health care
 
KingCondanomation said:
Keeping up with the Liberal Jones fallacy. That one industrial nation that doesn't have it is the best off in the world (guaged by desire to move to that country).
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If you believe America has the best healthcare system then you have not studied the issue my brother. Although we pay far more for our healthcare, we aren't even close to the best.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
completely impossible, but if you have an outline, i'll look at it.
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Quite obviously you haven't read the study I posted. Additionally, how would you know it's impossible if you haven't researched or studied it?

all economy runs off of consumerism. whether it's manufacturing or service that is offered, if nobody buys, no economy moves forward. You absolutely cannot get an economy to improve and strengthen unless the people can buy goods and services, otherwise it's just an exercise in futility. Trying to mitigate the costs of medical care as the linch pin to making the economy better is comparable to using a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
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In order for consumerism to occur, consumers need money to consume .. thus the purpose of infrastructure development which is an effort to produce jobs so consumers have money to buy .. THUS, so will this plan create millions of long-lasting non-exportable jobs that will do just that.

Might I suggest a bit of research before you determine what cannot be done.

The rest of the world can do it, but it's just to hard for us to figure it out.

Ridiculous.
 
blackascoal said:
The problem with that my brother is the right ain't in charge.

The center/democrats has complete control of the House and don't need a single republican to pass legislation. The center/democrats only has to convince a couple republicans in the Senate. This rests with the center/democrats.
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Yes but more and more Dems have been purchased/rented by corporate America.
 
uscitizen said:
Yes but more and more Dems have been purchased/rented by corporate America.
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That is quite true my brother .. but buying politicians is the American way of doing politics.

As a US Congressperson you get two years .. which means that knowing you're going to need lots of money to get re-elected, you'll have to start fundraising no less than a year before your next election. Some never stop fundraising. Pretty soon, you look up and you've sold your soul to the only ones who can afford to buy you, corporations.

It's the giant hole in the concept of democracy .. money.

Those most resistant to whoring for money are on the left .. the biggest reason why they don't get heard.
 
The real problem with healthcare is that there are too many intermediary hands in the pot. To actually get healthcare to a reasonable place where it would affordable and make sense for the gov't and/or ordinary citizens to afford it, at the end of the day you're going tohave to bust up a few industries, namely insurance brokerage firms who in some cases take a substantial cut of premiums. And we're going to have to take a hard look at how these companies actually come up with premiums.

Even in teh housing sector ppl have been paying PMI for years, yet, the gov't is the one bailing everyone out. I haven't heard of any PMI co's making substantial payouts out in the news.
 
LadyT said:
The real problem with healthcare is that there are too many intermediary hands in the pot. To actually get healthcare to a reasonable place where it would affordable and make sense for the gov't and/or ordinary citizens to afford it, at the end of the day you're going tohave to bust up a few industries, namely insurance brokerage firms who in some cases take a substantial cut of premiums. And we're going to have to take a hard look at how these companies actually come up with premiums.

Even in teh housing sector ppl have been paying PMI for years, yet, the gov't is the one bailing everyone out. I haven't heard of any PMI co's making substantial payouts out in the news.
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LADY T !!!

:cheer::cheer::cheer::chesh::party:

Where ya' been?
 
we will have nationalized healthcare. PERIOD

And we may thank the auto's companies and unions for proving to us we need it.
They shit flush 15 billion in a couple months already, now GM wants 30 billion more and before they launch the to be a big failure Volt they will ask for more.
Get rid of the insurance companies and handcuff the doctors/snake oil salesman by limiting pay.
Economy booms after, until then bonds might not looks so bad.
 
Topspin said:
....and before they launch the to be a big failure Volt they will ask for more.....
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Yeah, they are part of the "new green economy" so they'll even get it. You voted for it, don't be getting all bent about them getting cash now.
 
usc was alive during the model T times he knows of what he speaks

Watergerber would you buy a volt for $40,000 is you made more than the $12 hr you make.
 
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