Guns make for a more civilized society

TrippyHippy

free mind and open heart
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-guns-20130226-story.html

The faces of the NRA and other Republican gun lobby groups will lead you to believe that the only people who want guns are testosterone-fueled, white, conservative men. But, in reality, this should be a liberal issue too. And is for many people. After all, how better to defend women from rape than to put a gun their hands and level the playing field? LGBTQ from violent hate crimes? And so on.
 
The faces of the NRA and other Republican gun lobby groups will lead you to believe that the only people who want guns are testosterone-fueled, white, conservative men. But, in reality, this should be a liberal issue too. And is for many people. After all, how better to defend women from rape than to put a gun their hands and level the playing field? LGBTQ from violent hate crimes? And so on.

Yeah, if only ppl would keep their guns safely locked up inside their house where thieves and small children couldn't get them. But they don't.
If only ppl didn't feel a need to buy an arsenal capable of wiping out a herd of elephants, then using it to wipe out a church full of ppl. But they do.
If only ppl didn't feel a need to allow their mentally ill son learn to shoot for his self-esteem, only to die at his hands before he wiped out 26 lives in an elementary school. But she did.

If only....
 
How better to increase the likelihood of being injured by your own weapon than to have one handy 24/7?

Ok, well maybe you shouldn't be able to own a gun. But the rest of us with the very basic common sense not to shoot ourselves with our own fucking gun shouldn't be punished for others' stupidity.
 
What is the purpose of a gun? To kill. Do citizens need to kill each other? No - it is just a way in which the totally feeble can feel strong. Some citizens enjoy killing animals? Is this a reason to allow many other citizens to be killed? NO.
 
Ok, well maybe you shouldn't be able to own a gun. But the rest of us with the very basic common sense not to shoot ourselves with our own fucking gun shouldn't be punished for others' stupidity.

The truth went over your head, I see.

The author of your OPINION piece is a moron. Nothing more than a fearful punk, exactly the opposite of what he claims. A fucking Rambo wannabe. A caricature.
 
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guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are tools of defense. guns in the hands of criminals are tools of control and power. guns in the hands of government are tools of oppressive violence.

do citizens NEED to kill each other? no, but sometimes it is necessary because some fool tries to force another to do something against their will.
 
The truth went over your head, I see.

The author of your OPINION piece is a moron. Nothing more than a fearful punk, exactly the opposite of ehat he claims. A fucking Rambo wannabe. A caricature.

YOU are a moron who wouldn't know truth if it smacked you up one side of your idiot head and down the other, cunt.
 
YOU are a moron who wouldn't know truth if it smacked you up one side of your idiot head and down the other, cunt.

From the massive pussy with zero comprehension of the 2nd?

This guy is as big a pussy as you, bitch. Think he has the balls to pack his little peashooter into the courthouse? All delusional puffery.
 
That whole arguement is bogus, if it were true, we would be the safest nation in the world, we got more guns than people and yet we lead the developed nations in the number of citizens killed by guns per year, thirty thousand plus, the numbers alone make it erroneous

Never understood why some people are obsessed with the notion that they are going be mugged or that Attila and the Huns are going to be stopping by, probability is that if you are a victim of gun violence it is perpetuated by someone you know, and having a gun in the house multiplies considerably the chances
 
Yeah, if only ppl would keep their guns safely locked up inside their house where thieves and small children couldn't get them. But they don't.
If only ppl didn't feel a need to buy an arsenal capable of wiping out a herd of elephants, then using it to wipe out a church full of ppl. But they do.
If only ppl didn't feel a need to allow their mentally ill son learn to shoot for his self-esteem, only to die at his hands before he wiped out 26 lives in an elementary school. But she did.

If only....

If only gun control laws worked, and people didn't just buy their guns from the trunk of a car in the middle of an alley anyway. But, as we've seen from the 1920s prohibition and current drug war, criminals don't obey laws. Imagine that. And those are the types of people most likely to leave their guns laying around, amass an arsenal, and shoot up schools. I would much rather see good, law-abiding citizens making up the majority of gun owners. I'd much rather see an easy access legal system for guns, that can be overseen and regulated rather than letting the black market take it over. Legal guns have serial numbers, illegal guns do not. Legal guns have safety features, illegal guns do not. Legal gun purchases can be tracked, illegal gun purchases cannot. Legal guns can and often do require a mandatory gun safety course for purchases and carrying permits, illegal gun purchases will not. The list goes on and on.

The gun control discussion needs to shift. It's not a matter of "should we get rid of guns or not", we can't. The questions we should be asking is would we rather have transactions occurring in open storefronts or on the black market? Would we rather have only criminals carrying guns or have a decent balance of good people carrying guns too? Would we rather have people buying from a place that will require safety training or from a shady guy that doesn't give two shits about gun safety?

These shootings are a tragedy, but unfortunately we can't just ban away the bad. That's never worked, and never will. Let's work together, stop the knee-jerk emotional reactions, and come up with rational solutions that will work. Taking a long, hard look at mental health is a damn good start. This country's approach to mental health is deplorable and that's part of the real problem, not guns.
 
I’ve never applied for a gun permit, what are the criteria to obtain one? Do you have to demonstrate you can hit a target?

Thanks
 
I’ve never applied for a gun permit, what are the criteria to obtain one? Do you have to demonstrate you can hit a target?

Thanks

No, you don't have to even be sighted.

I own several guns, including two shotguns, a .22 rifle, a .357 revolver, and 4 non-revolver handguns which I've never fired. I used to have a .308 as well but gave it away because I don't hunt. These guns all belonged to my late husband. He had a concealed carry permit. At that time you actually had to take a class and be able to hit a target 7 yards away. I inherited them all. I'd sell them today if I knew someone sane would buy them.
 
No, you don't have to even be sighted.

I own several guns, including two shotguns, a .22 rifle, a .357 revolver, and 4 non-revolver handguns which I've never fired. I used to have a .308 as well but gave it away because I don't hunt. These guns all belonged to my late husband. He had a concealed carry permit. At that time you actually had to take a class and be able to hit a target 7 yards away. I inherited them all. I'd sell them today if I knew someone sane would buy them.
That scares me that you don’t have to show competence with your weapon.
 
If only gun control laws worked, and people didn't just buy their guns from the trunk of a car in the middle of an alley anyway. But, as we've seen from the 1920s prohibition and current drug war, criminals don't obey laws. Imagine that. And those are the types of people most likely to leave their guns laying around, amass an arsenal, and shoot up schools. I would much rather see good, law-abiding citizens making up the majority of gun owners. I'd much rather see an easy access legal system for guns, that can be overseen and regulated rather than letting the black market take it over. Legal guns have serial numbers, illegal guns do not. Legal guns have safety features, illegal guns do not. Legal gun purchases can be tracked, illegal gun purchases cannot. Legal guns can and often do require a mandatory gun safety course for purchases and carrying permits, illegal gun purchases will not. The list goes on and on.

The gun control discussion needs to shift. It's not a matter of "should we get rid of guns or not", we can't. The questions we should be asking is would we rather have transactions occurring in open storefronts or on the black market? Would we rather have only criminals carrying guns or have a decent balance of good people carrying guns too? Would we rather have people buying from a place that will require safety training or from a shady guy that doesn't give two shits about gun safety?

These shootings are a tragedy, but unfortunately we can't just ban away the bad. That's never worked, and never will. Let's work together, stop the knee-jerk emotional reactions, and come up with rational solutions that will work. Taking a long, hard look at mental health is a damn good start. This country's approach to mental health is deplorable and that's part of the real problem, not guns.

Most gun owners *are* law-abiding ppl. The problem is most of them do not use trigger guards, nor keep their guns in a gun safe, or otherwise secured.

If you want everyone to have a gun, then why not some sensible requirements, like we do with cars?
1. All guns must be purchased from a licensed dealer.
2. Background checks, no exceptions, no excuses.
3. Mandatory trigger guards.
4. Mandatory gun safe.
5. Liability insurance in case one of your guys is lost, stolen, or used in a suicide or a crime or an accident resulting in injury/death.
6. Mandatory gun handling and safety training at owner's expense, renewable every other year.
7. Database with all guns and owners that only law enforcement can access.

I'm sure you can think of others.

I've got to head off to class in a few minutes; looking forward to continuing this civil discussion. Hopefully the crazies won't show up and ruin it.
 
From the massive pussy with zero comprehension of the 2nd?

This guy is as big a pussy as you, bitch. Think he has the balls to pack his little peashooter into the courthouse? All delusional puffery.

considering the FACT that your only inclination of what the 2nd truly means is pure delusional fantasy, your opinion means jack fucking shit, cop sucker
 
No, you don't have to even be sighted.

I own several guns, including two shotguns, a .22 rifle, a .357 revolver, and 4 non-revolver handguns which I've never fired. I used to have a .308 as well but gave it away because I don't hunt. These guns all belonged to my late husband. He had a concealed carry permit. At that time you actually had to take a class and be able to hit a target 7 yards away. I inherited them all. I'd sell them today if I knew someone sane would buy them.

if you don't know the laws, then don't try to tell others what they are. thanks.
 
I have a baseball bat for home self-defense. Does that make me a bad person?
You would be surprised how effective a good, solid piece of wood is for self defense.

Getting into a gun battle in a dark house seems like a pretty good way to risk shooting someone innocent, a family member, a pet, putting a hole through the wall and hitting the neighbors house, etc.

I don't keep a gun in my house for self-defense, for the same reason I don't take a parachute with me when in a high rise office building, in case the fire exits get blocked. Statistically the cost-risk-benefit just does not cut if for me.
 
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