Graham unloads on Trump: Blind spot on Russia 'undermining his entire presidency'

Amadeus said:
So the deal is Putin invades the Ukraine, annexes Crimea, props up Assad and contributes to the wholesale slaughter of innocents and the escalation of ISIS -- but he takes one step back and gets total sanctions relief. Sounds like a pretty good deal for Putin. He has Crimea, Assad, and is forgiven for election shenanigans. What does the US get?
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we "prop up" our own in Syria,and they aren't wonderful liberators. There really aren't any good actors there except the FSA, and they are minor players who can't hold their weapons in battle.

I hate to make you aware of this but Crimea is a done deal. So we can sit around and mope about it,
or we can leverage that to (perhaps) get Putin out of Donbass -a nasty little war in east Ukraine.

we get a seat at the table in Geneva ( which we didn't before) to help negotiate a peace plan for Syria.

Or we can leave it at the status quo -keep the Donbass war hot, and let Russia alone decide the fate of Syria
 
Amadeus said:
Graham is a hawk, but a patriotic hawk. He has seen Putin play this game for the past 17 years.
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all the more reason to change the dynamics. we can't undo NATO expansion, we can mitigate escalation like
the European Reassurance Initiative.

we can't do it with the Cold War II mindset of Graham however,and we can't make ANY progress on relations
(like on N.Korea)if we are simply set on "punishing Putin"
 
anatta said:
No-one is calling for lifting sanctions. Not without some deal.
If we could get Putin out of Donbass in return for sanctions relief -fine.

But Graham/Shumer, and the rest of the mad dogs do not want to do anything -they want to stay stuck with more "punishing Russia" .

The Syrian ceasefire is a good idea. It may favor Assad, but much of the fighting is done there (SW Syria)
if it begins a peace process, then it's worth it.

What you are advocating is the same as the rest of the dogs - *Russia grr grr* with no thught to improving the relationship
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You simply have no idea how clueless that sounds brother. No clue.
 
Stretch said:
Putin's been a poster boy for bad behavior forever.
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Sure, but his bad behavior has increased, especially post-2014. At one point it seemed like he could be worked with despite bad behavior, and Obama learned by the middle/end of his presidency that Putin was a double-crossing snake. That Trump is going into his relationship with Putin with such naivety is inexcusable. We now have Bush and Obama's presidencies to draw experience from, and frankly, Trump isn't in their league in terms of intellect or political savvy. The only benefit that comes from a relationship with Putin will inevitably be in Putin's favor, and at America's expense.

And since people like anatta have expressed sympathy, admiration, and adoration for Russia under Putin, it's perfectly fine if America suffers to benefit and strengthen Russia.
 
Fuck Populists said:
Just a way for him to give Russia our cybersecurity secrets. At least if the wikileaks he loves so much hadn't already done that several times.
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the CIA you love so much was careless enough to let them be hacked.
What is the make up of this cybersecurity partnership? I don't know..maybe we should at least look at a proposal?

If it's against "non-state actors" isn't that a good partnership?
 
anatta said:
all the more reason to change the dynamics. we can't undo NATO expansion, we can mitigate escalation like
the European Reassurance Initiative.

we can't do it with the Cold War II mindset of Graham however,and we can't make ANY progress on relations
(like on N.Korea)if we are simply set on "punishing Putin"
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So ignore history, ignore Intelligence .. let's all go with what Trump says .. because before Trump, you were not talking about Russia and Putin as you do now.

You have no idea how clueless that sounds.
 
Amadeus said:
Sure, but his bad behavior has increased, especially post-2014. At one point it seemed like he could be worked with despite bad behavior, and Obama learned by the middle/end of his presidency that Putin was a double-crossing snake. That Trump is going into his relationship with Putin with such naivety is inexcusable. We now have Bush and Obama's presidencies to draw experience from, and frankly, Trump isn't in their league in terms of intellect or political savvy. The only benefit that comes from a relationship with Putin will inevitably be in Putin's favor, and at America's expense.

And since people like anatta have expressed sympathy, admiration, and adoration for Russia under Putin, itself perfectly fine if America suffers to benefit and strengthen Russia.
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Obama didn't do a damn thing.
Oh he did sanction the Sisi gov't for being a "junta gov't" when nobody else in Congress even wanted it.

That forced Sisi to look elsewhere for weapons parts, and also partner with Putin for agri products.
Also he looked to Russian expertise for Egypt's nuke plants

He effectively let Putin back in Egypt -something every president had kept out since the 1970's

I won't even go into demonization/ "mono-polarism" -Obama was derelict.
 
blackascoal said:
So ignore history, ignore Intelligence .. let's all go with what Trump says .. because before Trump, you were not talking about Russia and Putin as you do now.

You have no idea how clueless that sounds.
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There's no excuse to get hoodwinked by Putin again. anatta is right about one thing, Putin is laughing at America -- not because of America's inept government, but it's like taking candy from a baby to play each administration for suckers. Obama at least kept his pants on, unlike Trump.
 
Here's a clue for some of the Trump critics on this deal:

It's nigh-on impossible to prevent cyber meddling by a determined party. It's like identity theft: if there was a rock solid means of preventing that, it would have been thought of by now. All Putin [or the CIA] needs to do is hire 3rd parties to do the work for them. Also, hackers can implicate another [innocent party] by leaving false flags as evidence.

Which may even be the case with Russia.

At any rate, I'm going to wait and see what the deal entails before jumping off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.
 
blackascoal said:
So ignore history, ignore Intelligence .. let's all go with what Trump says .. because before Trump, you were not talking about Russia and Putin as you do now.

You have no idea how clueless that sounds.
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unlike yourself, I do constant research.
While my forte is still ME/ terrorism
I began to hear about "NATO expansion" and started to study things like promising not to put NATO troops into E.Germany after reunification. ( Jsmes Baker et all)

That led to wondering WTF we have Romania in NATO,and why an ABM system there is supposedly against non-existent Iranian ICBM's is actually a way to put nuclear missiles on Putin's borders.

If you say I am guilty of continuing studies, I agree.
 
Amadeus said:
There's no excuse to get hoodwinked by Putin again. anatta is right about one thing, Putin is laughing at America -- not because of America's inept government, but it's like taking candy from a baby to play each administration for suckers. Obama at least kept his pants on, unlike Trump.
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Obama bombed Libya into a failed terrorist state.
guess whom is now making inroads into eastern Libya? (Bengazi)-Putin.
 
I guess Lindsey Grahamnesty missed the message sent to him during the primaries which was; STFU.

If his constituents re-elect this dumbest, they're just as stupid. What a tucking moron this guy has turned into. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls an Arlen Spector and switches to the Party of the Jackass.
 
Amadeus said:
There's no excuse to get hoodwinked by Putin again. anatta is right about one thing, Putin is laughing at America -- not because of America's inept government, but it's like taking candy from a baby to play each administration for suckers. Obama at least kept his pants on, unlike Trump.
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Don't look now my friend, but the entire world is laughing at us.

America has never looked so inept, so weak, and so bumbling as we do right now.

The eagle has become a pigeon.
 
Watching two grown world leaders play "yes you did.....no I didn't" forever is not entertaining. There are bigger battles to be fought. Putin knows he "did"...and he knows that we know he "did". Either drop it and move on or let the dems and rinos charge him in a world court or something and ignore all the other flames burning around the world that we might together be able to help extinguish. Let'm both think they are "big boys", appease their collective alpha male testosterone and move on.

 
blackascoal said:
Don't look now my friend, but the entire world is laughing at us.

America has never looked so inept, so weak, and so bumbling as we do right now.

The eagle has become a pigeon.
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The USA is now a 2nd tier country...
Little more than an annex to Russia...
Putin is in charge of America's foreign policy...
 
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