GOP talking point: if you oppose SCOTUS decision, you're against democracy

BartenderElite said:
You can wait all you want. Abortion has been legal for more than a generation. Ergo, it's legality is the law of the land.

You're looking for a distinction without a difference.
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It is NOT the law of the land. It never was. The Supreme Court had no authority to change the Constitution. They cannot create law. Age does not change that. Tradition fallacy.
 
Flash said:
That is not what it says. Some state constitutions allow referendum on legislative issues, others do not, some allow referendum on constitutional amendments, some have initiative.

In my state we have never voted on issues other than constitutional amendments.
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A referendum or an initiative is NOT a legislative issue. It's an issue before the people. A constitutional amendment is an issue before the people.

You don't vote for your legislatures, then?
What State are you in, dude?

I assume you are trying to use this predicate to say that the people do not have a vote about abortion.
Then you point out the constitutional amendment process.

You are now locked in paradox. Irrational.
 
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BartenderElite said:
Because, hey - now the VOTERS get to decide if a woman has rights nor not. Why would anyone be opposed to that? Don't you trust voters to do the right thing?

I've already heard it a half dozen times in the past day. If you oppose overturning a 50+ year old precedent and what has been the law of the land for a generation, you're against democracy. You're against Americans.

They really play us all for fools.
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agree with you on this one.
nothing to do with "democracy" it's Constitutional law - normal SCOTUS activity
 
Into the Night said:
It is NOT the law of the land. It never was. The Supreme Court had no authority to change the Constitution. They cannot create law. Age does not change that. Tradition fallacy.
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Correct.

Roe vs. Wade was never a law, it was a Supreme Court decision. A very flawed decision that is now being corrected.

The only abortion bill died in the Senate. It never became law.
 
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Into the Night said:
A referendum or an initiative is NOT a legislative issue. It's an issue before the people. A constitutional amendment is an issue before the people.
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A referendum is a bill before the legislature to be decided by a statewide vote.

If the state has initiative it is a bill that was written by some group and qualified for the ballot though a certain number of signatures by the registered voters.

A constitutional amendment is an issue put before the voters after that amendment was written by the legislature and placed on the ballot through legislative action.

With variations by state.

Being able to vote for the state legislature and governor is only an indirect method to vote on issues like abortion and does not guarantee the same result as a direct vote of the people.

That is the reason the 21st amendment was ratified by state ratifying conventions rather than 3/4 of the state legislatures--because state legislatures were unwilling to repeal prohibition. Delegates to state ratifying conventions didn't have to worry about being reelected.
 
Flash said:
A referendum is a bill before the legislature to be decided by a statewide vote.
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It is not before the legislature. It is before the people.
Flash said:
If the state has initiative it is a bill that was written by some group and qualified for the ballot though a certain number of signatures by the registered voters.
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Again, an issue before the people.
Flash said:
A constitutional amendment is an issue put before the voters after that amendment was written by the legislature and placed on the ballot through legislative action.
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No. It is simply an amendment...an addendum. A constitution must describe a procedure for how it is to be amended, and that procedure must involve the owners of that constitution (or it isn't a constitution).
Flash said:
Being able to vote for the state legislature and governor is only an indirect method to vote on issues like abortion and does not guarantee the same result as a direct vote of the people.
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If you want a democracy, good luck finding one. There are NO democracies currently in the world today.
Flash said:
That is the reason the 21st amendment was ratified by state ratifying conventions rather than 3/4 of the state legislatures--because state legislatures were unwilling to repeal prohibition. Delegates to state ratifying conventions didn't have to worry about being reelected.
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Straw man fallacy. Irrelevant.
 
BartenderElite said:
Most do.

But why are a women's inherent rights up to voters? Can we start putting the right to own a gun on the ballot in various states?
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It was not an inherent right until 1973. If it is an inherent right it would have been in the Constitution and all the state constitutions. It was a court interpretation of a right that did not have a history in the U. S. or British common law.
 
BartenderElite said:
Because, hey - now the VOTERS get to decide if a woman has rights nor not. Why would anyone be opposed to that? Don't you trust voters to do the right thing?

I've already heard it a half dozen times in the past day. If you oppose overturning a 50+ year old precedent and what has been the law of the land for a generation, you're against democracy. You're against Americans.

They really play us all for fools.
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Yes the left hates Democracy whenever they don't get their way and do everything within their power to circumvent it whenever they can, your reiterating that incontrovertible fact derisively does nothing to change that that's reality. Notice you can't actually argue against the point and offer no rebuttal to it whatsoever?
 
FreeSpeech1789 said:
Yes the left hates Democracy whenever they don't get their way and do everything within their power to circumvent it whenever they can, your reiterating that incontrovertible fact derisively does nothing to change that that's reality. Notice you can't actually argue against the point and offer no rebuttal to it whatsoever?
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Since the 2020 election, almost every conservative on this site has argued that "we're not a democracy."

Conservatives always want fewer people to vote. They are not pro-democracy.
 
Flash said:
It was not an inherent right until 1973. If it is an inherent right it would have been in the Constitution and all the state constitutions. It was a court interpretation of a right that did not have a history in the U. S. or British common law.
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Women have inherent rights over their own bodies. That this was not specified in the Constitution is more a reflection of the time that document was established.
 
BartenderElite said:
Women have inherent rights over their own bodies. That this was not specified in the Constitution is more a reflection of the time that document was established.
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They don't have inherent rights over the life and death of other human bodies and becoming pregnant is a voluntary act, voluntary actions have consequences.
 
BartenderElite said:
Women have inherent rights over their own bodies. That this was not specified in the Constitution is more a reflection of the time that document was established.
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It must not be inherent if it was only recently discovered. Does a woman (or man) have the inherent right to be a prostitute or use drugs or have sex at 17?

I think it is more of a political than a constitutional rights issue. I favor keeping it legal in my state, but it is hard to find a constitutional justification for that right.
 
FreeSpeech1789 said:
They don't have inherent rights over the life and death of other human bodies and becoming pregnant is a voluntary act, voluntary actions have consequences.
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It is not always a voluntary act. And well beyond the usual "rape & incest" exception (which many states aren't even planning on making).
 
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