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Taft2016 said:
I'm citing the letter because, as I must have said 50 times so far in this thread, the issue of slavery and culture of the antebellum American south, are much more complex than current discussions allow for.

This discussion being a prime example.
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I'm sure that is true, because all cultures are more complex than outsiders think them, but by the time people were fighting the final issue must surely have been clear enough - and certainly some of my wife's family went over to fight slavery in the Union Army, just as so many of our people served as chaplains (one of the reasons, I'm told, that so many 'black' people in America have 'Welsh' names, since there were few such among the slaveholders) and preached to the freemen after it. Were there any volunteers fighting for the South? There was a fabulous series on Sianel Pedwar Cymru, our television channel, a few years back dealing with letters, journals and so on in our language from the time of the War. You'd have enjoyed that, I think. My own relatives were doing more self-serving things liked digging silver-mines in Navada County, California, alas. Fell in on one, and serve him right!
 
Just the fact that Taft attempted to claim that slave owners didn't beat their slaves because they wouldn't have gotten invited to all the best cocktail parties is hilarious and would lead anyone with critical thinking skills to dismiss him outright. Which is what I did.

I am sure the idiot believes men don't beat their wives even without laws against DV because, you know, totally left off the block party planning committee.

Idiot.
 
Darla said:
Just the fact that Taft attempted to claim that slave owners didn't beat their slaves because they wouldn't have gotten invited to all the best cocktail parties is hilarious and would lead anyone with critical thinking skills to dismiss him outright. Which is what I did.

I am sure the idiot believes men don't beat their wives even without laws against DV because, you know, totally left off the block party planning committee.

Idiot.
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You really should be talking with your therapist about those personal issues.
 
iolo said:
I'm sure that is true, because all cultures are more complex than outsiders think them, but by the time people were fighting the final issue must surely have been clear enough - and certainly some of my wife's family went over to fight slavery in the Union Army, just as so many of our people served as chaplains (one of the reasons, I'm told, that so many 'black' people in America have 'Welsh' names, since there were few such among the slaveholders) and preached to the freemen after it. Were there any volunteers fighting for the South? There was a fabulous series on Sianel Pedwar Cymru, our television channel, a few years back dealing with letters, journals and so on in our language from the time of the War. You'd have enjoyed that, I think. My own relatives were doing more self-serving things liked digging silver-mines in Navada County, California, alas. Fell in on one, and serve him right!
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Yes, I would have enjoyed watching that. Maybe it'll turn up on YouTube someday.

I don't think the majority of people, on either side, thought they were fighting for or against slavery. Some on both sides avowed they were, but most cited other concerns; saving the union, states' rights, etc.

Although when peeling the artichoke leaves back, the issue of slavery is always at the core.

Something like 2% to 5% of the Confederate Army were slave owners. So that huge majority had to have a stronger motivation to take up arms than protecting the property of rich landowners. Likewise, northerners were no great lovers of blacks either, and were unlikely to leave home and family for years on end for such a reason.

A lot of American blacks also have Irish names. The book "Black Bostonians" discusses the frequent intermarriages between free blacks and Irish immigrants in that city, and around the country at the time.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Bostonians-Community-Struggle-Antebellum/dp/0841913803
 
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Darla said:
Just the fact that Taft attempted to claim that slave owners didn't beat their slaves because they wouldn't have gotten invited to all the best cocktail parties is hilarious and would lead anyone with critical thinking skills to dismiss him outright. Which is what I did.
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Are you aware of what English society did to Oscar Wilde?

And why?

Society opinion held great sway in those times, and falling out of favor with it affected not only you, but also your wife, your children, and their progeny. Your business connections depended upon it.

Again, I don't expect a hag living in a double wide in a swamp chugging malt liquor to get it. This is more for the thinking participants here.
 
Darla said:
This is what these lunatics really believe. It's not a difference of opinion; they are stark raving mad.
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Isn't it alarming, though, that there are so many of the weird nutters? I just hope some of them are cynical scoundrels putting it on, because no country could really carry so many idiots and survive!
 
iolo said:
Isn't it alarming, though, that there are so many of the weird nutters? I just hope some of them are cynical scoundrels putting it on, because no country could really carry so many idiots and survive!
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How's the empire faring these days?
 
Taft2016 said:
Are you aware of what English society did to Oscar Wilde?

And why?

Society opinion held great sway in those times, and falling out of favor with it affected not only you, but also your wife, your children, and their progeny. Your business connections depended upon it.

Again, I don't expect a hag living in a double wide in a swamp chugging malt liquor to get it. This is more for the thinking participants here.
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It was, after all, not 'society' but an archaic law and one of those 'moral panics' London so frequently suffers that did for Wilde - an awful lot of people knew exactly what was going on, and I'm sure that was true for sadists in the South. People who have to be can be remarkably inattentive
 
Hasa Diga Eebowai said:
I do not live in Lee's time. I don't find it useful. There's less point in it then contemplating what I would do if I were a moisture farmer on a desert planet that found a droid with a secret message for a Jedi.

You and Tom have offered plenty of proof to establish that Lee was a horribly immoral man.
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You just can't help being a prick these days.
 
Taft2016 said:
He did not "lead" a rebellion. He joined the armed forces of his home state, which then joined a secessionist nation of states.

As with our nation today, the civlian component of the government declares the wars, the soldiers fight them.
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Oh gosh Taft; there you go confusing the ignorant dunce with the facts again. He's going to "wikipedia" you now! LMFAO
 
iolo said:
It was, after all, not 'society' but an archaic law and one of those 'moral panics' London so frequently suffers that did for Wilde - an awful lot of people knew exactly what was going on, and I'm sure that was true for sadists in the South. People who have to be can be remarkably inattentive
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Upon his release from Reading Gaol, all of his old "friends" in society snubbed him, with the notable exception of George Bernard Shaw.

He moved to Paris in a depression and died shortly afterwards. Virtually penniless. He career as a successful playwright finished.

Society made him, society ruined him.
 
Darla said:
I've had him on IA since the first week he began posting regularly, sometime last year. He's some sort of lunatic. I never even respond to him at all and didn't even have any idea he'd been following me around venting bile until a few people mentioned it. How odd. I love how he is whining about liberals mistreating him. LMAO Can he even be serious? He's an abusive lunatic. I guess he was hoping for flowers in return.
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I am amused when uniformed hate filled lunatics claim that others are lunatics.

You really are a pathetic dunce. But I am happy you have me on IA; that way I don't have to read your dimwitted spam which merely leads to the never ending circle of stupidity.
 
Taft2016 said:
Do you seriously believe I am unaware of that Robert E. Lee was a general in the Confederate Army and need a wiki citation to advise me of such?

You said Lee "lead" the rebellion. I say Jefferson Davis lead the rebellion. Do you wish to debate that?

And if the Commanding Officer of the Army of Northern Virginia is the person who "lead" the rebellion, then its prior three generals; Beauregard, Johnston, and Smith "lead" the rebellion more than Lee did. Lee followed them all.
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Led... The word is led. Lead is not like read where the past tense and the present tense are spelled the same but pronounced differently this is likely because lead (when pronounced led) is a noun for a certain type of metal while red is an adjective describing a color.
 
Taft2016 said:
I'm citing the letter because, as I must have said 50 times so far in this thread, the issue of slavery and culture of the antebellum American south, are much more complex than current discussions allow for.

This discussion being a prime example.
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You remind me of someone who naively believes that dishonest partisan assholes are interested in honest debate.

It is much better to point at them and laugh rather than try to engage them in a dialogue they have no interest in. But I do admire your persistence.
 
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