For WM: Heroic 13 yr Old Boy and Parents Bravely Resist Court Ordered Chemotherapy

That's fallacious. Driving a vehicle does not require deep, complex thought. It doesn't involve your higher thinking functions that are effected by maturity. Deciding to not undergo necessary treatment to save your life because of brainwashing at the hands of your murderous scum parents shows clear signs of immaturity. Parents don't own their children. They don't have the right to murder them. These parents should be put in prison for the rest of their life.

I am not the one arguing that the child should have no say, that would be BAC... so save your faux outrage for him. If you note, your argument above is contradictory. You argue that a kid was immature enough to be brainwashed into following his parents wishes and then turn around and say parents down own their kids?

Side note... I have already said that due to this particular kids learning disability I do think it was probably wise for the courts to get involved in this case. But at the same time I hate the fact that they did because I think it sets a dangerous precedent of interference.

You say the parents down own the kids and I agree... but even more importantly, the courts do not own the kids. The courts should not, in most cases, have the ability to demand any particular treatment. That is a family decision.
 
The is nothing "courageous" about being dupes to a bogus cult that will get a kid killed.
Nemenhah Band is just that, another BS cult whose leader has a rap sheet for fraud.
This type of thing gives "alternative", "homeopathic" and "holistic" medicine a bad name.
 
"Your argument is ridiculous."

The only thing that is ridiculous is your assertation that teenagers are devoid of critical thinking capabilities. That is absoultely absurd.

"ALL states prohibit 16 year-olds from drinking alcohol, buying cigarettes, and purchasing handguns. What do you think the thought is on 13 year-olds?"

Yes... and ??? That has nothing to do with critical thinking or the ability to comprehend what cancer is and how the treatments can effect them. Not one thing.

"No one in their right mind would consider sending 16 year-olds off to war. What do you think the thought is on 13 year-olds?"

And no one is suggesting sending teenagers off to war are they? There is more involved in war than critical thinking. Again, your argument is absurd.

"Even using your own example, teenagers account for more fatal car accidents than any other age group .. thus giving rationale for those who believe they shouldn't get drivers licenses until they turn 18."

Again, AS I STATED, no one is suggesting that the kid have the sole vote. As I said, they should be involved in the decision. If the parents and kid agree, the courts should stay the fuck out of the decision. It is not the courts or the doctors place to dictate what the family must believe or must do. Unless there is reason to believe that the kid is not capable of comprehending the situation. As I stated, in this particular case, I think it appears so. But in NO way should that be the rule. The court interferece should be the RARE exception. Period.

"Sure some are more capable than others, but society must judge on the basis of the whole, not the exception."

Society has no place dictating how others should beleive or what medical practices a person or family use. The exception as I said is a case like this. This is not a fucking nanny state.

"Feel free to believe that teenagers are adults or are just as capable of critical thinking as adults are. I have no problem with what you believe."

Oh look, one final strawman. I never said that teenagers were adults, nor did I say they were just as capable as adults. You are simply resorting to more absurdity.

I do have a problem with what you believe, because you want to force your beliefs on others.
 
The hypocrisy of the right wingnuts is amazing. The same people who want to control a woman's life now think helping a child live is wrong. How one can hold those conflicting thoughts is wild. Aborting cells is wrong but killing a child is fine!

Do parents have the right to allow their child to die once that child is able to live a life. I saw this with neighbors who allowed several of their children to deteriorate and die, even as people and the state tried to save them. If one thinks that is good there is no hope for them.

They are not conflicting thoughts you twit. In the case of abortion, you are not giving the child a voice, you are not providing the child with basic human rights protections. You are killing the child out of convenience in most cases. In cases like this, the child has a voice as do the parents and the court is inserting itself into the families decision. In this particular case due to the learning disability of the child, I think it is an appropriate exception to the rule.

As for your second paragraph... if the child and the parents agree... who the fuck are you to dictate YOUR belief system to them? What fucking arrogance one must have to think you know what is best for them. Eastern medicine has been around for thousands of years. Is it the cure all for everything... no. Neither is western medicine. In Western medicine we are so quick to drug everyone up for anything and everything it is pathetic. Again, in this particular case I think they did the right thing. But only because the child has a learning disability that may prevent him from comprehending what is going on.
 
The hypocrisy of the right wingnuts is amazing. The same people who want to control a woman's life now think helping a child live is wrong. How one can hold those conflicting thoughts is wild. Aborting cells is wrong but killing a child is fine!

Do parents have the right to allow their child to die once that child is able to live a life. I saw this with neighbors who allowed several of their children to deteriorate and die, even as people and the state tried to save them. If one thinks that is good there is no hope for them.

I know you're wrong most of the time so this is no surprise to you, but your second sentence is in this case inaccurate.

I am the starter of the thread, and I do not want to control a woman's life. Nor do most libertarian leaning Republicans.
 
It's not ethnocentricity, Epic. I'm pretty sure you've seen me criticize homeopathy and the antivax movement as well. I criticize all methods that refuse to subject their works to double-blinded, scientific studies, fail when they do, and then claim that they are immune to scientific studies because of energy fields or some other nonsense. These procedures are cheap, sure. Dirt is also cheap. That doesn't mean you'll ingest it to treat cancer.

The fact that these procedures have been practiced for a long time is not a defense for them. The advantage of the scientific method is that it changes when new evidence comes in. There are no holy cows. If something doesn't work, it doesn't work, and that's that. With acupuncture, it hasn't changed at all. It isn't open to change. You never hear an acupuncturist say "Hey, when I was treating this boy with cancer with acupuncture he died. Do you think maybe the second chi field on the right is overrun and that we may have to rewrite the textbooks?" Nope. That's not how it works. It works because it works, and fuck you and your stupid "evidence" that says otherwise.

BTW, science, after all these years, HAS figured out the function behind acupuncture. It's the placebo effect. It's well documented that fancy sugar pills give a stronger placebo effect than plain pills. So, acupuncture is just a very, very fancy placebo. Since it's a placebo, we can't use it for medical treatment. We can't tell people "Hey, look, this doesn't actually do anything real, but if you use it and you think it does the placebo effect will kick in and it'll ehlp." And we can't lie to them, because that would be unethical. And the applications of placeboes are limited - they can't at all be used to fight cancer. They have use in pain relief, because the brain has power over that region. And that's about it.

I agree with you generally, I just hate your pontificating about this issue.

Also I respect people's rights to kill themselves via ignorance if they choose, so long as they don't drag anyone else down with them. Cancer is not contagious. This boy refusing treatment does not affect anyone other than him, and if he were capable of understanding the decision he should be able to oppose the procedure.
 
This sort of thing straddles the line for me. Children shouldn't die because their parents have crazy ass belief systems but the state shouldn't require anyone to undergo any medical procedure that is not necessary to save the lives of others.

The problem is that, because it is a child, it is unclear whether the child is making an informed decision to forgo medical treatment or is just parroting the horseshit his parents have drilled into him.

The stats are this:

He has a 90% likelihood of a survival with the chemo and a 95% chance of death without it. The time that has lapsed between his original diagnosis and one time chemo treatment and his subsequent "alternative" treatment has seen the tumor grow. The parents joined a "tribe" so that they could legally partake of peyote. They are the mellow hippie types. They likely love their son a lot, but I suggests they are dope headed idiots.

The question is: Does the state have a responsibility to intervene on the child’s behalf? I say that given the high statistical survival rate with treatment and the grim stat for death...yes.
 
Oh look, one final strawman. I never said that teenagers were adults, nor did I say they were just as capable as adults. You are simply resorting to more absurdity.

I do have a problem with what you believe, because you want to force your beliefs on others.

I have no problem with you having problems with what I believe.

Teenagers are not adults, they don't think like adults, don't have the capacity of adults .. and this boy is nothing more than a victim of his confused parents who are mesmerized by a cult.

Your argument is ridiculous and I doubt if you give a rats ass about the life of this child beyond how he suits your ideological crap.

The good news is the state doesn't give a rats ass about what you believe either.

That's the good news.
 
I have no problem with you having problems with what I believe.

Teenagers are not adults, they don't think like adults, don't have the capacity of adults .. and this boy is nothing more than a victim of his confused parents who are mesmerized by a cult.

Your argument is ridiculous and I doubt if you give a rats ass about the life of this child beyond how he suits your ideological crap.

The good news is the state doesn't give a rats ass about what you believe either.

That's the good news.

Take a look back BAC, the only one posting ridiculous arguments is YOU with your moronic strawmen. No matter how many times I point it out, you continue to make up shit and pretend it is my position. I expect crap like that from Dung, not you.

FOR THE FINAL TIME, I HAVE NEVER STATED OR IMPLIED THAT A TEENAGER IS AN ADULT. NOR HAVE I SUGGESTED THAT THEY ARE EQUALLY CAPABLE AS ADULTS WHEN IT COMES TO CRITICAL THINKING.

What I have said is that teenagers are most certainly (on average) capable of critical thought. They are capable of understanding what cancer is, what treatments entail, and the difference between life and death. They are fully capable (again, in most cases) of making a decision. That does not mean they should have the final say if their decision goes against their parents. But if they and their parents agree, then the state should not interfere.

People like you think you know what is best for everyone else and want to force your OPINIONS on everyone else. It is not your right to do so. It is not the right of the State to do so.... unless the child IS incapable of making a decision, such as seems to be the case in this situation.

As for caring for this particular kid, I stated that the state did the right thing in my opinion in this particular case. The only thing we are disagreeing on is whether this is the norm or not. You seem to think all teenagers are like this kid. I do not.

You cloud the issue with your dislike for what you call 'cults' or 'superstitions'. If people want to believe in a religion and that religion does not beleive in a form of treatment, then as long as the parties invovled understand the consequences IT IS NOT YOUR PLACE (or the states) TO INTERFERE. PERIOD.
 
Horseshit supertool,
why the fuck do you think we have child abuse laws.
This is most certainly child abuse in the worse way.
 
Horseshit supertool,
why the fuck do you think we have child abuse laws.
This is most certainly child abuse in the worse way.

Listen dipshit... leave the discussion to the adults. A teenager who is certainly capable of understanding this situation should again have a SAY in what happens. If that teenager AND his parents agree, then it is not YOUR place to say they HAVE to take some form of medical treatment.

But no, idiots like you continue to pretend that I am suggesting the teenager makes this decision all on his or her own.

I have stated time and again that in this particular case, the courts did the right thing given the childs learning disability. How many times do I have to fucking say that before a moron like you will comprehend it?
 
this single 30 something tool know that teenagers are capable of live and death decisions. LOFL

1) It is LIFE and death you fucking idiot

2) yes, they are certainly on average capable of making such a decision. Obviously you are allowing the fact that you are still not capable of critical thought bias your opinion on what teenagers are capable of.

3) To suggest that teenagers aren't capable of critical thought is simply absurd.

4) To be clear, since you idiots cannot seem to comprehend this... this does NOT mean they should have the sole vote in what occurs.

5) You are a fucking moron.
 
you don't have kids
your a rightwing tool
your bike seat is crushing your tiny brains.
His parents are numnuts like you, that's why they are on the run from the law.
 
you don't have kids
your a rightwing tool
your bike seat is crushing your tiny brains.
His parents are numnuts like you, that's why they are on the run from the law.

1) Not relevant to the discussion
2) Simply your delusional opinion
3) Great rebuttal, I mean.... you like totally crushed my position with that one
4) Try reading the story moron, the MOM is on the run with the kid, not both of them.

5) As I stated 100 fucking times, which is still apparently not enough for morons like you to comprehend. I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

tell me how many I need before you understand it..... I can post it again if need be.
 
are they or are they not on the run from the law.
How that's not child abuse is beyond me.
I understand how it's not beyond a fuching nut crunch cyclist rightwing tool like you though. No shit 30 something and no kids.
I'M NOT FUCKING SURPRISED
 
5) As I stated 100 fucking times, which is still apparently not enough for morons like you to comprehend. I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

That's all very well, SF, but you continually refuse to answer the question.

DO YOU THINK THE COURTS DID THE RIGHT THING?

Stop being so damned evasive, man.
 
are they or are they not on the run from the law.
How that's not child abuse is beyond me.
I understand how it's not beyond a fuching nut crunch cyclist rightwing tool like you though. No shit 30 something and no kids.
I'M NOT FUCKING SURPRISED

Again your eloquence and articulation of your position leaves no doubt as to who has won this argument. How could I possibly respond to such a display of intellect?
 
That's all very well, SF, but you continually refuse to answer the question.

DO YOU THINK THE COURTS DID THE RIGHT THING?

Stop being so damned evasive, man.

Ok, ok... you busted me... i guess I should finally state my opinion on the matter...

the Irish are indeed superior to the English.
 
1) Not relevant to the discussion
2) Simply your delusional opinion
3) Great rebuttal, I mean.... you like totally crushed my position with that one
4) Try reading the story moron, the MOM is on the run with the kid, not both of them.

5) As I stated 100 fucking times, which is still apparently not enough for morons like you to comprehend. I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.
I think the courts did the right thing in this case.

tell me how many I need before you understand it..... I can post it again if need be.

That's all very well, SF, but you continually refuse to answer the question.

DO YOU THINK THE COURTS DID THE RIGHT THING?

Stop being so damned evasive, man.

No, kidding! You'd think it would be easy to say something like, "I think the courts did the right thing in this case." and it would go a long way towards clearing up all the confusion. I would if I were you, SF.
 
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