folks, its our nation

Your comprehension and people skills are surely lacking. You poor little dummy, it must suck to be you. :)

Watermark said:
There is practically no limit on the powers of states in the core (excluding amendments) text of the constitution. They can establish as many "socialist welfare programs" as they want. That alone shows how little you know of what you're talking about.

The general welfare clause itself ONLY deals with the federal government. I don't even know how you could come up with an interpretation of the general welfare clause that allows a government to run schools but not feed the hungry, but then again, you don't seem to even understand any interpretation. For you, the constitution is merely a means to an end, and whether or not you are actually speaking truth is secondary to promoting the silly ideology you've been brainwashed with.
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Watermark said:
SMY, I know you're a hack, but even you can't pretend like she knows what she's talking about. The general welfare clause has nothing to do with state governments or fire departments vs. welfare.
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I think her point is that your post was so fucked up with lack of reason and logic that it wasn't worth responding to in a logical and reasonable way. The Fed shouldn't have anything to do with fire departments or programs to help the poor.
 
General Welfare is not a clause, it was part of the preamble. It was a purpose (not a power) to which they answered with a delineation of powers, in actual clauses, that they believed would best serve that welfare.

It's notable that nobody ever cites the "Blessings of Liberty Clause"... It's because they realize that the Preamble is not a clause or any part of the delineation of the power.
 
Damocles said:
General Welfare is not a clause...
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Article I, Clause 8, Section 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and
Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
 
Southern Man said:
Article I, Clause 8, Section 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and
Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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This is the taxing clause, not a general welfare clause. general welfare spending is why the taxing clause was written.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
This is the taxing clause, not a general welfare clause. general welfare spending is why the taxing clause was written.
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Section 8 is generally referred to the enumerated powers. Congress is granted the power to lay taxes for these enumerated purposes, and the "general Welfare" is correctly interpreted as the Welfare of the States. This clause does not give Congress authority to fund States or individuals for individual expenses.
 
Southern Man said:
Article I, Clause 8, Section 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and
Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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Again, it isn't a clause in such a case. It lists what the clause is about then lists it again describing what it is FOR.

Here is the power you have... (clause).

Why do you have it? (not a clause, it is the reasoning behind the clause).

General Welfare is not a power granted in any clause. It is a reason that some powers were given. That clause specifies the power to collect taxes, then, like in the Preamble, it tells you why they granted that power. The whole document follows General Welfare, But there is no specific granting of the power of "General Welfare", there is no "General Welfare" clause, just as there is not a "Blessings of Liberty" clause.
 
Southern Man said:
Section 8 is generally referred to the enumerated powers. Congress is granted the power to lay taxes for these enumerated purposes, and the "general Welfare" is correctly interpreted as the Welfare of the States. This clause does not give Congress authority to fund States or individuals for individual expenses.
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the 'clause' gives congress the power to tax and spend, 'general welfare' is one of the reasons to tax and spend. and as you said, it is not to fund individuals. This was the obvious intent of the taxing power/clause as stated in Federalist papers 41.
 
Damocles said:
Again, it isn't a clause in such a case. It lists what the clause is about then lists it again describing what it is FOR.

Here is the power you have... (clause).

Why do you have it? (not a clause, it is the reasoning behind the clause).

General Welfare is not a power granted in any clause. It is a reason that some powers were given. That clause specifies the power to collect taxes, then, like in the Preamble, it tells you why they granted that power. The whole document follows General Welfare, But there is no specific granting of the power of "General Welfare", there is no "General Welfare" clause, just as there is not a "Blessings of Liberty" clause.
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I don't interpret it that way. The section starts out with "The Congress shall have the Power" then follows with a listing of 18 enumerations all beginning with the preposition "To", all separated with a semicolon, with the last enumeration superseded by "And". It's a list.
 
Southern Man said:
I don't interpret it that way. The section starts out with "The Congress shall have the Power" then follows with a listing of 18 enumerations all beginning with the preposition "To", all separated with a semicolon, with the last enumeration superseded by "And". It's a list.
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I completely understand how it can be easily mis-interpreted. Here is the list of enumerated powers:

• Collect taxes • Borrow money • Regulate trade • Establish Bankruptcy codes • Coin money • Establish post offices • Provide a military • Provide a militia • Make all necessary and proper laws • Declare War
 
SmarterThanYou said:
I completely understand how it can be easily mis-interpreted. Here is the list of enumerated powers:

• Collect taxes • Borrow money • Regulate trade • Establish Bankruptcy codes • Coin money • Establish post offices • Provide a military • Provide a militia • Make all necessary and proper laws • Declare War
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And the correct interpretation is:


Section 8

Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts
and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and
general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and
Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2:

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Clause 3:

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States,
and with the Indian Tribes;

Clause 4:

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the
subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Clause 5:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix
the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6:

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
current Coin of the United States;

Clause 7:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

Clause 8:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
respective Writings and Discoveries;

Clause 9:

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 10:

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas,
and Offences against the Law of Nations;

Clause 11:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Clause 12:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use
shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Clause 13:

To provide and maintain a Navy;

Clause 14:

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
Forces;

Clause 15:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and
for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the
United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of
the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the
discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 17:

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over
all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in
which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals,
dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Clause 18:

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
Department or Officer thereof.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
:sigh: you can lead a man to facts, but you can't make him think.:whiteflag:
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The facts are that there are 18 enumerated powers. So unless you can show me something saying there are only 17...

Rep. John Shadegg (R-AZ) has introduced HR450, the Enumerated Powers Act, sporting 19 co-sponsors to date (04/09/09). ...

He said the Founding Fathers granted specific, limited powers to the national government to protect the people’s freedom.

“As a result, the Constitution gives the Federal Government only 18 specific enumerated powers, just 18 powers,” Shadegg noted.
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http://www.uslaw.com/library/Obama_...roduces_Enumerated_Powers_Act.php?item=440215
 
Southern Man said:
Shadegg says there are 18, and he has 31 co-sponsors to his bill.
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That's pretty funny. If Shadegg's own bill passes muster I can't see how anything would not. This is the sum total of Shadegg's citation to the constitutional authority for passing the Enumerated Powers Act:

his Act is enacted pursuant to the power granted Congress under article I, section 8, clause 18, of the United States Constitution and the power granted to each House of Congress under article I, section 5, clause 2, of the United States Constitution.
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Apparently a nod to the necessary and proper clause is good enough.
 
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