Fear of Atheism

[gmark77]

'we'?? Are you having another schizophrenic episode, Gunky?

No, you and I together established that you are not here to be serious but rather derail threads will silliness. Have at it. I just know now not to take anything you say seriously.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

All social animals from monkeys to elephants cooperate for mutual advantage and self preservation.

That's cold, hard Darwinian evolution whose goal is self preservation of one's genetic information. That's not morality.

You as an atheist, have not been able to provide a foundation for objective moral duties and values.

If you want to worship Darwinian evolution, that's your choice.

Many people believe, or are searching, for meaning and purpose that doesn't involve self interest and self preservation.

more morality is more common in animal than you think, just not you warmonger people who are bent on devolution.

 

[Cypress]

I need a description of a universe that isn't infinite.
I can't imagine an end--a boundary--with nothing on the other side of it, even if that something is an infinite void or vacuum.
Infinite just seems so much more imaginable, not that I can actually fully imagine it,
but it seems far less cryptic a thought than a finite boundary with nothing outside of it.

I have no way of disproving the theory,
so I can't say with certainty that it isn't so,
but a finite universe is simply nothing that I can imagine.

I think that possibly "survival of the fittest" stopped becoming evolution's default standard
when humans evolved into a social species that could be more efficient and productive
doing essential things collectively. Eventually, eschewing lone wolf inclinations and being
supportive of one's "pack" members became genetically more successful for survival.

The thing is, I don't care if I'm a totally material person or one with spiritual attributes.
Neither situation offends me or pleases me.
I go with the former because I don't think it's possible to have a non-material soul
and never once sense it.

It's definitely possible that the universe is nothing but blind physical forces, and we are nothing but electrochemically-bound collections of quarks and electrons.

I can't categorically rule that out.

In that case, there is no morality, and moral values are really just an illusory religious concept.
We are really just dancing to the tune of billions of years of genetic mutation, ultimately based on the self-preservation and propagation of our own genetic information.

 

[Ross Dolan]

You're free to believe Jesus was teaching and emphasizing Mosaic ritual laws like ritual sacrifice, ritual cleanliness, and work on Sabbath.

I think any fair reading of the New Testament makes that supposition laughable.

If Jesus was teaching, following, and emphasizing the Mosaic ritual laws and civil laws instead of focusing on the moral law, the Pharasees would not have been following him around and complaining.

So you are convinced that Jesus was lying.

Hummm. Wouldn't have thought that; wouldn't have expected it.

But...people have told others stuff they wanted to hear whether true or not probably since humans finally became humans.

I disagree. I do not think Jesus was lying. I think he was telling you "just so."

He was not going to be contradicting his GOD any more than you would.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with Asian culture.

I didn't say you said there was anything wrong with Asian culture.

I said that you would probably be unpleasantly surprised if you got transported to an alternate universe western world where the western monotheistic traditions never existed. Primarily because experimental science, skeptical inquiry, formal logic, art, and philosophy are inextricably bound up with western monotheism and uniquely took root in the west.

Whatever. I happen to think you are incorrect, but I may be wrong and your guess might be correct.

Buddhists don't even believe in a rational creator God. Hinduism and Buddhism are focused on impermanence and consider reality a type of illusion we have to see past. The folk religions of China considered Tian or the Tao a totally impersonal and diffuse type creative force. It's not a personal, rational monotheistic diety. Taoism is in some very real sense an exploration of the irrational and subjective.

So what?

Western natural philosophers went looking for scientific natural laws, and expected to find them, because they believed in a personal, rational, and omnipotent law-giver. At least that's a big reason for it.

There may be no law giver. That is simply a blind guess you are making...after making the blind guess that there is a GOD.

There may be a GOD...and it may not be a law giver.

I certainly would not want the GOD of the Bible to be an actual law giver, because that god is an abomination.

Don't take my word for it. That is what Isaac Newton said .

Why should I take his word instead of yours? Why should I take anyone's word?

I think that's a very strong case for why experimental science and formal logic developed uniquely in the West, and nowhere else on the planet.

Cypress...think of what you are saying. You are better than this...you are more intelligent than this.

 

[Cypress]

more morality is more common in animal than you think, just not you warmonger people who are bent on devolution.

Animals are not moral agents like humans.

Lions will kill the cubs of male competitors. Male rabbits and male deer will instinctively forcibly copulate with female rabbits and deer.

The reason you don't accuse lions of being murderers or rabbits of being rapists is because your mind is actually crystal clear on the concept that animals are not moral agents, whereas we expect humans to exercise moral agency.

 

[Cypress]

So you are convinced that Jesus was lying.

Hummm. Wouldn't have thought that; wouldn't have expected it.

But...people have told others stuff they wanted to hear whether true or not probably since humans finally became humans.

Feel free to labor under the illusion that Jesus emphasized & taught, and Christianity requires, strict observance of the Jewish non-moral ritual laws of animal sacrifice, cleanliness, circumcision, and Sabbath.

That's not even worth a retort.

I disagree. I do not think Jesus was lying. I think he was telling you "just so."

He was not going to be contradicting his GOD any more than you would.



I didn't say you said there was anything wrong with Asian culture.


Whatever. I happen to think you are incorrect, but I may be wrong and your guess might be correct.


So what?


There may be no law giver. That is simply a blind guess you are making...after making the blind guess that there is a GOD.

There may be a GOD...and it may not be a law giver.

I certainly would not want the GOD of the Bible to be an actual law giver, because that god is an abomination.


Why should I take his word instead of yours? Why should I take anyone's word?

Cypress...think of what you are saying. You are better than this...you are more intelligent than this.

The Christian Bible is very legalistic, and for western natural philosophers it was not a big jump to go from a rational monotheistic moral law-giver, to a rational monotheistic natural law-giver.

That's largely why experimental science and formal logic uniquely is rooted in the west.

The canonical texts of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism are not nearly as legalistic, and philosophically the Eastern traditions look at reality as impermanent, in constant flux, and something of an illusion that blinds us to the truth. In some cases, the Eastern traditions are explorations of the irrational, intangible, subjective.

^^ That's not a recipe for inductive logic and experimental science.

The Christian Bible (Romans, I think) explicitly states that God is revealed in natural revelation, aka God is revealed in the order and design of the universe.

So again I will submit that you would probably be unpleasantly surprised if you transferred yourself to an alternate universe where western monotheistic traditions never emerged in Europe.


I do think the west overemphasized technology, empiricism, physical materialism. The Eastern traditions have good insights into the non-empirical dimensions of life.

^^ You need that Ying and Yang.

I'm just saying I think you would be shocked to your core to wake up tomorrow in a world that never knew western monotheistic traditions.

 

[Cypress]

cooperation working provide the objectivity of cooperation.

"Cooperation" in and of itself isn't morality.

The Germans cooperated to get rid of a minority of undesirables, which would in effect purportedly strengthen the gene pool and national security of the Aryan nation.

 

[Cypress]

Is morality "learned" or is there any part of morality that is "instinct" to humans?

Observe any group of three and four year old preschoolers and ask yourself if, left to their own devices, they are naturally inclined to eschewing self-interest and selfishness, and embracing selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others as the New Testament ethos articulates

 

[ZenMode]

You are not discussing a topic here.

With you? No, because you prefer to play games.

 

[Into the Night]

No, you and I together established that you are not here to be serious but rather derail threads will silliness. Have at it. I just know now not to take anything you say seriously.

You can't speak for me, Gunky.
Bulverism fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

more morality is more common in animal than you think, just not you warmonger people who are bent on devolution.

Morality is not a quantity, NoName.

 

[Into the Night]

It's definitely possible that the universe is nothing but blind physical forces, and we are nothing but electrochemically-bound collections of quarks and electrons.

Quarks are not chemistry, Sybil. The Universe is not a force.

I can't categorically rule that out.

I can, and just did. You are just bullshitting again, Sybil.

In that case, there is no morality, and moral values are really just an illusory religious concept.

Morality is not a quantity. Go learn what 'morality' means.

We are really just dancing to the tune of billions of years of genetic mutation, ultimately based on the self-preservation and propagation of our own genetic information.

Another nothing statement.

 

[Into the Night]

Feel free to labor under the illusion that Jesus emphasized & taught, and Christianity requires, strict observance of the Jewish non-moral ritual laws of animal sacrifice, cleanliness, circumcision, and Sabbath.

That's not even worth a retort.

The Christian Bible is very legalistic, and for western natural philosophers it was not a big jump to go from a rational monotheistic moral law-giver, to a rational monotheistic natural law-giver.

That's largely why experimental science and formal logic uniquely is rooted in the west.

Science has no location. Science is not an experiment. Science is not logic. You deny both science and logic as well as mathematics. Logic is not religion.

The canonical texts of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism are not nearly as legalistic, and philosophically the Eastern traditions look at reality as impermanent, in constant flux, and something of an illusion that blinds us to the truth. In some cases, the Eastern traditions are explorations of the irrational, intangible, subjective.

^^ That's not a recipe for inductive logic and experimental science.

Logic is not religion. Science is not an experiment.

The Christian Bible (Romans, I think) explicitly states that God is revealed in natural revelation,

What is 'natural' revelation??? Is it like 'natural' cereal?

aka God is revealed in the order and design of the universe.

So again I will submit that you would probably be unpleasantly surprised if you transferred yourself to an alternate universe where western monotheistic traditions never emerged in Europe.

There is no such thing as an 'alternate universe'.

'Uni' means ONE. There is only one universe...by definition.

I do think the west overemphasized technology, empiricism, physical materialism. The Eastern traditions have good insights into the non-empirical dimensions of life.

^^ You need that Ying and Yang.

I'm just saying I think you would be shocked to your core to wake up tomorrow in a world that never knew western monotheistic traditions.

There is no such thing as a 'monotheistic tradition'. You are bullshitting again.

 

[Into the Night]

"Cooperation" in and of itself isn't morality.

The Germans cooperated to get rid of a minority of undesirables, which would in effect purportedly strengthen the gene pool and national security of the Aryan nation.

There is no such thing as an Aryan nation. Murder does strengthen any gene pool.

 

[Into the Night]

Observe any group of three and four year old preschoolers and ask yourself if, left to their own devices, they are naturally inclined to eschewing self-interest and selfishness, and embracing selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others as the New Testament ethos articulates

I can tell you've never been around kids.

 

[Into the Night]

With you? No, because you prefer to play games.

LIF. You can't blame your problem on me or anybody else, Void.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Feel free to labor under the illusion that Jesus emphasized & taught, and Christianity requires, strict observance of the Jewish non-moral ritual laws of animal sacrifice, cleanliness, circumcision, and Sabbath.

That's not even worth a retort.

Cypress....your denial is getting out of hand. Jesus worshiped the god described in the Old Testament. He worshiped the god and the laws that Leviticus and Deuteronomy describe. If there was a single person who was the Jesus of the New Testament, that person considered the god spoken of in the New Testament to be THE GOD that sets the tone for humanity.

In the Matthew comment cited, that Jesus says he is not here to change a thing...not a word of the law...not a letter of the law...not even a part of a letter of the law.

Now Paul, in his letter to the Galatians inferred that conversions to Christianity by non-Jews were required to be circumcised (Titus, his constant companion was not) nor did they have to follow the proscribed dietary restrictions. That was about it. That all was pretty much decided at a meeting in Jerusalem...a meeting about which I have written several lengthy essays.

The reason you will not comment is not because the issue is not worth it...but because you cannot make a coherent argument against what I can bring to the table.

The Christian Bible is very legalistic, and for western natural philosophers it was not a big jump to go from a rational monotheistic moral law-giver, to a rational monotheistic natural law-giver.

Why do you suppose a monotheistic religion is superior to a polytheistic one? Why do you guess it is more likely to exist?

That's largely why experimental science and formal logic uniquely is rooted in the west.

The canonical texts of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism are not nearly as legalistic, and philosophically the Eastern traditions look at reality as impermanent, in constant flux, and something of an illusion that blinds us to the truth. In some cases, the Eastern traditions are explorations of the irrational, intangible, subjective.

^^ That's not a recipe for inductive logic and experimental science.

The Christian Bible (Romans, I think) explicitly states that God is revealed in natural revelation, aka God is revealed in the order and design of the universe.

So again I will submit that you would probably be unpleasantly surprised if you transferred yourself to an alternate universe where western monotheistic traditions never emerged in Europe.

I have been influenced by what has happened in the West...as has everyone who has been raised in the West. You keep making that point as if it means something. It really doesn't in the overall thrust of what we are discussing.

I have been influenced by a World War...by the absurd machinations of Sen. McCarthy during the 1950's, by the many movies I've seen, by the books I have read, by the schools and teachers of my life, by a myriad of things.

We all have.

I do think the west overemphasized technology, empiricism, physical materialism. The Eastern traditions have good insights into the non-empirical dimensions of life.

^^ You need that Ying and Yang.

I'm just saying I think you would be shocked to your core to wake up tomorrow in a world that never knew western monotheistic traditions.

Yes, I would be. I probably would think I have gone mad...as would anyone waking up to such a change.

So what?

 

[ZenMode]

LIF. You can't blame your problem on me or anybody else, Void.

Your game playing isn't my problem.

 

[Cypress]

Cypress....your denial is getting out of hand. Jesus worshiped the god described in the Old Testament. He worshiped the god and the laws that Leviticus and Deuteronomy describe. If there was a single person who was the Jesus of the New Testament, that person considered the god spoken of in the New Testament to be THE GOD that sets the tone for humanity.

In the Matthew comment cited, that Jesus says he is not here to change a thing...not a word of the law...not a letter of the law...not even a part of a letter of the law.

Now Paul, in his letter to the Galatians inferred that conversions to Christianity by non-Jews were required to be circumcised (Titus, his constant companion was not) nor did they have to follow the proscribed dietary restrictions. That was about it. That all was pretty much decided at a meeting in Jerusalem...a meeting about which I have written several lengthy essays.

The reason you will not comment is not because the issue is not worth it...but because you cannot make a coherent argument against what I can bring to the table.

Circumcision, dietary laws, ritual purity, shellfish prohibitions are not moral laws

You are the first person I have met in six decades who seems to be resolutely suggesting Jesus taught immorality.

I could care less if people get circumcised or avoid shellfish. Those aren't moral matters. They are ritual laws, and even Orthodox Jews practice them today, without me thinking it reflects on their morality

Why do you suppose a monotheistic religion is superior to a polytheistic one? Why do you guess it is more likely to exist?


I have been influenced by what has happened in the West...as has everyone who has been raised in the West. You keep making that point as if it means something. It really doesn't in the overall thrust of what we are discussing.

I have been influenced by a World War...by the absurd machinations of Sen. McCarthy during the 1950's, by the many movies I've seen, by the books I have read, by the schools and teachers of my life, by a myriad of things.

We all have.

Yes, I would be. I probably would think I have gone mad...as would anyone waking up to such a change.

So what?

I never wrote anything about polytheism being inferior.

What I did was clearly state the case that Western monotheism was instrumental for why experimental science and formal logic took root in Europe, and nowhere else on the planet.

The fact that I spoke about a ying and yang specifically showed I have respect for Eastern intellectual traditions, because humans can't just be focused on the empirical, rational, and technological at the expense of other dimensions of human experience.

If I thought Eastern religions were a complete waste of time, I never would have invested the time and effort to read the Dhammapada, the Bhaghavad Gita, the Analects of Confucius, the Dao de Jing, the Zhuangzi.

 

[gmark77]

Observe any group of three and four year old preschoolers and ask yourself if, left to their own devices, they are naturally inclined to eschewing self-interest and selfishness, and embracing selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others as the New Testament ethos articulates

So morality is learned which means there must have been a society which was the first to "discover" that murder was wrong. Which society do they think was the first to discover this? Are the Israelites the first society we read about that clearly calls out murder as morally wrong?

Or is there evidence of societies predating the Israelites that expressly forbade murder as immoral?