FDNY Entrance Exam Biased Against Minorities?

USFREEDOM911 said:
She would have willingly spread her legs for the likes of Eldridge Cleaver; because he was a "reformed rapist".
Well, that and he's black.

In the most controversial part of the book, Cleaver acknowledges committing acts of rape, stating that he initially raped black women in the ghetto "for practice" and then embarked on the serial rape of white women. He described these crimes as politically inspired, motivated by a genuine conviction that the rape of white women was "an insurrectionary act". When he began writing Soul on Ice, he unequivocally renounced rape and all his previous reasoning about it. However, he refused to show any remorse for his career as a rapist, or acknowledge any debt to society, claiming in Soul on Ice that "the blood of Vietnamese peasants has paid off all my debts".
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Where the fuck do you get off talking to a lady like that?
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
AWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
Rune is groaning; because he didn't think that the comments made, in the ruling, were degrading to minorities.
I guess he doesn't believe that minorities should have any cognitive and reading skills; because he prefers to have them stupid and illiterate.
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AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Now Rune is groaning; because I explained his groaning. :p
 
Taichiliberal said:
And yet you STILL persist in giving your myopic view and examples, which IGNORE the many OTHER points the article presents.

In short, you're a lousy propagandist. Good thing the courts don't reflect your attitude.
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You should read the thread first before commenting. I already said that there is something fishy about the NYFD recruitment policies but it is not due to the test which for the most part is laughably easy. Even the ultra liberal Village Voice said so as well, so what exactly is your point?
 
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Abraxas said:
Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
And yet you STILL persist in giving your myopic view and examples, which IGNORE the many OTHER points the article presents.

In short, you're a lousy propagandist. Good thing the courts don't reflect your attitude.
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You should read the thread first before commenting. I already said that there is something fishy about the NYFD recruitment policies but it is not due to the test which for the most part is laughably easy. Even the ultra liberal Village Voice said so as well, so what exactly is your point?
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Well, that's NOT exactly what the Voice said about the test....another distortion on your part. Obviously, you're not reading comprehensively. But if you agree that the hiring/recruitment policies were suspect, then we essentially have no argument.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Well, that's NOT exactly what the Voice said about the test....another distortion on your part. Obviously, you're not reading comprehensively. But if you agree that the hiring/recruitment policies were suspect, then we essentially have no argument.
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You could have saved yourself a lot of time had you read the thread from the start.
 
Abraxas said:
You should read the thread first before commenting. I already said that there is something fishy about the NYFD recruitment policies but it is not due to the test which for the most part is laughably easy. Even the ultra liberal Village Voice said so as well, so what exactly is your point?
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To be clear I still think there's something wrong with the test but that the test isn't the entire problem.

It doesn't seem logical that racial and ethnic groups continue to flunk out at much higher rates than white males. I don't believe white males are inherently smarter than the others.
 
christiefan915 said:
To be clear I still think there's something wrong with the test but that the test isn't the entire problem.

It doesn't seem logical that racial and ethnic groups continue to flunk out at much higher rates than white males. I don't believe white males are inherently smarter than the others.
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I have yet to see one question that could even slightly be labelled as biased against minorities.
 
christiefan915 said:
To be clear I still think there's something wrong with the test but that the test isn't the entire problem.

It doesn't seem logical that racial and ethnic groups continue to flunk out at much higher rates than white males. I don't believe white males are inherently smarter than the others.
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Inherently ?...of course not....its a test of specific knowledge to a particular subject....none of us would pass it without studying the subject being tested....it has nothing to do with
being or not being inherently smarter....so the problem is obvious, its a matter learning the subject and preparation....
 
NOVA said:
Inherently ?...of course not....its a test of specific knowledge to a particular subject....none of us would pass it without studying the subject being tested....it has nothing to do with
being or not being inherently smarter....so the problem is obvious, its a matter learning the subject and preparation....
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Actually Nova, because of lawsuits that isn't the case with civil service ENTRANCE examinations any longer. Promotional exams are a much different matter. Entrance exams are now limited to 100 multiple choice idiot-caliber questions.

The 10 questions in the OP are from the two exams in question, which represent a 5% sampling of all of the questions in the lawsuit. It's basically reading ability and common sense that is being tested, for instance:

4. A fire department instructor is explaining to a newly-assigned firefighter the hazards of electrical wires that have fallen in the street. Which one of the following is an action that a firefighter should NOT take?

A) Keep people away from the fallen wires.
B) Use caution when working near energized wires.
C) Handle highly-energized wires while standing in a puddle of water.
D) Notify the utility company and tell them to respond to the emergency.
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I don't even know if it's even written in a book anywhere that you don't "handle highly-energized wires while standing in a puddle of water." It's probably assumed that once you're cognizant enough to be able to read, you already have that knowledge. Like, "don't touch a hot stove."
 
christiefan915 said:
To be clear I still think there's something wrong with the test but that the test isn't the entire problem.

It doesn't seem logical that racial and ethnic groups continue to flunk out at much higher rates than white males. I don't believe white males are inherently smarter than the others.
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Well it would seem that the courts think differently, they obviously think that minorities are less capable of taking the test. If you are in a burning building I doubt that the people inside care what colour skin the rescuer has but they might want the best people doing the job. Here is a practice test for the FDNY.

http://www.testq.com/education/quizzes/51-train-like-the-fdny-practice-written-exam
 
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Abraxas said:
Well it would seem that the courts think differently, they obviously think that minorities are less capable of taking the test. If you are in a burning building I doubt that the people inside care what colour skin the rescuer has but they might want the best people doing the job. Here is a practice test for the FDNY.

http://www.testq.com/education/quizzes/51-train-like-the-fdny-practice-written-exam
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I took the practice test and really looked at the wording of all the questions. TBT I don't see the bias and wish we knew more specifics on how the courts came to this conclusion about the test only, not just the egregious hiring practices of the NYFD.
 
christiefan915 said:
I took the practice test and really looked at the wording of all the questions. TBT I don't see the bias and wish we knew more specifics on how the courts came to this conclusion about the test only, not just the egregious hiring practices of the NYFD.
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(1) Whether the 30 questions on the practice test are representative of the 200 questions on the two specific tests that were deemed discriminatory is anyone's guess.

(2) Here's the nickel summary: The legal theory under which the examinations were deemed discriminatory is called "disparate impact," which is basically a statistical analysis of the test results across racial lines and assessing how candidates perform on the test. In practice, minority test takers performed worse that their white counterparts. That's a disparate impact. That's not the end of the inquiry, though. If the test is demonstrated to be an effective means of testing the ability to perform the functions of the job, it doesn't matter if the minorities perform worse than whites. Disparate impact is fine if the test reflects the ability to perform the job. The problem with the FDNY tests is that, based on expert testimony and the testimony of the people who actually prepared the test, the Court found that it did not test the ability to perform the job. Where a test has a disparate impact and does not test the ability to perform the job, it's discriminatory and in violation of the law.

Here's the relevant trial court decision:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/doc_385.pdf

And here's the appellate decision:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/ruling.pdf
 
Bonestorm said:
(1) Whether the 30 questions on the practice test are representative of the 200 questions on the two specific tests that were deemed discriminatory is anyone's guess.

(2) Here's the nickel summary: The legal theory under which the examinations were deemed discriminatory is called "disparate impact," which is basically a statistical analysis of the test results across racial lines and assessing how candidates perform on the test. In practice, minority test takers performed worse that their white counterparts. That's a disparate impact. That's not the end of the inquiry, though. If the test is demonstrated to be an effective means of testing the ability to perform the functions of the job, it doesn't matter if the minorities perform worse than whites. Disparate impact is fine if the test reflects the ability to perform the job. The problem with the FDNY tests is that, based on expert testimony and the testimony of the people who actually prepared the test, the Court found that it did not test the ability to perform the job. Where a test has a disparate impact and does not test the ability to perform the job, it's discriminatory and in violation of the law.

Here's the relevant trial court decision:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/doc_385.pdf

And here's the appellate decision:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/ruling.pdf
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Thanks, I understand now. It's not about the specific questions on the test.
 
christiefan915 said:
I took the practice test and really looked at the wording of all the questions. TBT I don't see the bias and wish we knew more specifics on how the courts came to this conclusion about the test only, not just the egregious hiring practices of the NYFD.
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In fact in question 12 they seem to have gone to great lengths to eliminate any minority bias by saying the arsonist is a white male. So can all the whites that failed claim the cash on offer as well?
 
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