SmarterthanYou
rebel
which were worthless, considering the extra money spent and various other ridiculous regulations inserted in other bills....like HCR
Fascinating Poll: Likely Voters Don't Know Squat
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which were worthless, considering the extra money spent and various other ridiculous regulations inserted in other bills....like HCR
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
we cling to our guns and religion in fear...
it doesn't matter how many times obama calls anyone who disagrees with his policies stupid, because the left wholly agrees with him
I assume you know the difference between targeting specific industries and actually incentivizing hiring. But I could be wrong. I also assume you noticed that there really were not "shovel-ready" jobs as he stated there were. I assume that because even he says that they weren't there now....
And lastly I assume you realize that 2/3 of that nearly trillion dollars was wasted, I assume that you know that because even Michael Bennet realizes that...
You only "debunk" things in your own mind, as your Ford thread idiocy (you know, the one you sprinted from) showed again.
Obama wanting them to not be noticeable = the effect of many voters thinking they went up, that the economy has shrunk, that the bailout money is lost for good, and everything else from the first post.
Not even a nice try, there....
So, everything but the tax breaks was "wasted"? Really?
That's a hoot.
I'll allot that there was plenty of waste; they erred on the side of speed, not efficiency. As I said on another thread earlier, to me, the stimlulus served it's main purpose, which was to stop the bleeding & get things moving in a positive direction again.
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
So the stimulus was just to get the car headed back toward the road?
That's concrete and folksy, let's run with it.
To me, that was its main purpose, yeah; that doesn't mean it was its only purpose, and no doubt, it has failed in many respects.
Anyone who was hoping for a perfect bill at that time was likely disappointed. I'm not among those....
SmarterthanYou
rebel
Wasn't the "shovel ready" jobs stimulus the second one to be voted on by the dems? The tax stimulus was Bush's?
yeah, what's 800 billion compared to a badly written bill.
Between the time of the crash & the passage of the stimulus, the U.S. economy lost $3 Trillion.
$800 billion is peanuts, especially considering that a third was tax breaks. We can argue all day about whether the economy would have kept crashing for awhile without it; I certainly think it would have, and know without a doubt that it would have without both the bailouts & stimulus.
The residual effects from lack of action would have lost exponentially more than the cost of the stimulus, imo. Absent outside spending, it isn't hard to imagine an economy where businesses keep cutting back, people keep losing jobs, and consumers keep cutting back, causing businesses to cut back even more.
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
But now our whole economy is based on falsely inflated assets.
"The big lie" that all totalitarian movements require is our economy itself.
I'd say it's brilliant if it wasn't so evil.
I don't exactly disagree with that. I might counter with "when hasn't it been over the past 30 years?"
You won't get an argument out of me that fundamental, if not revolutionary, change in our economic foundation is needed, as well as radical reform.
However, the nadir of the crash is not exactly the time to start that....
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
nadir.... that made me think of something funny... lol.
The timeline of the "stimulus":
http://www.economicstimulusdetails.com/stimulus-timelines.html
March 2008: Bush stimulus $29 billion for Bear Stearns/JP Morgan Chase deal
May 2008: Bush stimulus $178 billion in tax rebate checks
July 2008: Bush stimulus $300 billion for distressed homeowners
July 2008: Bush stimulus $200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
September 2008: Bush stimulus $50 billion to guarantee money market funds
September 2008: Bush stimulus $25 billion to Big 3 automakers
September-November 2008: Bush stimulus $150 billion to AIG
October 2008: Bush stimulus $700 billion to banks (TARP)
February 2009: Obama stimulus $787 billion in broad stimulus package
February 2009: Obama stimulus $75 billion for distressed homeowners
February 2009: Obama stimulus $200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
March 2009: Obama stimulus $30 billion for AIG
March 2009: Obama Stimulus $15 billion for small business lending
March 2009: Obama Stimulus $1 trillion to get toxic assets off bank’s troubled asset sheets
March 2009: Obama Stimulus $22 billion for Big 3 Automakers Chrysler and GM
Things we should notice. The "broad" stimulus was 787 Billion, this was after TARP, which was passed by Bush. Since TARP there have been still more bailouts yet we proudly proclaim we were "paid back" ignoring things like the $1 Trillion to get "toxic assets" off the banks' books...
Other things. Even Michael Bennet, totally dedicated to voting whatever way he was told to by Obama, says that they spent that money without any noticeable benefit whatsoever.
Nigel and Onceler love to say we would be "worse off" if we hadn't. I can understand where they are coming from. It staved off a lower bottom, however the poorly constructed "stimulus" simply stretched the bottom they artificially created. We watched this happen to the Japanese in their "lost decade", but we can't learn from the past here in the US. We have to slavishly follow whatever people in our party want us to follow.
Now all this we've spent trying to "fix" what was supposedly caused by badly run government, and that same Administration now wants us to vote for more Ds in Congress because he "isn't done yet"...
I think we should make sure he's done, now.
"We have to slavishly follow whatever people in our party want us to follow."
It's silly to try to pin that on me, quite frankly. I believed in the bailouts, because I understood the economic logic; I believed in the stimulus for the same reason. One was under Bush, and one was under Obama.
For the life of me, I still don't get the "alternative" idea to the stimulus. Concentrating only on tax breaks and (especially) spending reduction at that time would have been devastating, imo. Again - we were caught in a cycle:
Market crashes
Business get afraid, and cut back
People lose jobs
Consumers either lost job, or are afraid of that, so stop spending
Lack of consumer spending hurts businesses
Businesses cut back more
Market crashes more
Ad infinitum....
It's silly to try to pin that on me, quite frankly. I believed in the bailouts, because I understood the economic logic; I believed in the stimulus for the same reason. One was under Bush, and one was under Obama.
For the life of me, I still don't get the "alternative" idea to the stimulus. Concentrating only on tax breaks and (especially) spending reduction at that time would have been devastating, imo. Again - we were caught in a cycle:
Market crashes
Business get afraid, and cut back
People lose jobs
Consumers either lost job, or are afraid of that, so stop spending
Lack of consumer spending hurts businesses
Businesses cut back more
Market crashes more
Ad infinitum....
So the only "actual" tax relief was the 178 billion to tax payers (Bush) and the 15 billion to small business (Obama)? TARP was paid back (Bush) but all the rest was spending that has resulted in abolsutely no net effect...except for the likelyhood that it undid any benefits from the meager tax breaks?
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
how about letting the market correct itself from the stock and housing bubble....those two bubbles caused massive increase in prices, jobs etc that simply were not sustainable imo...
no need to borrwo trillions in order to prop up an economy that can never remain at the level indefinitely
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
this...he has been running around saying he isn't even close to accomplishing his agenda and that if people vote in repubs, he won't be able to complete his agenda....
yet he campaigned on promises his government checks can't cash...when he finally admitted there were no shovel ready jobs....that was a major negative in my view of him as a president....you don't campaign on the promise of shovel ready jobs or was it after he was elected and campaigning for the stimulus...of shovel ready jobs and then nearly two years later admit....ooops...there are no shovel jobs
iwo...he really isn't cut out to be the president and should never have bullshitted the american people like that
Quite a few at that time were arguing for full-on "creative destruction," and allowing the market to correct itself naturally.
In my opinion, and that of those who support the economic theories behind the bailouts & stimulus, that would have been exceedingly painful, and would have affected many more people in a much more negative way. At the very least, we would have seen job losses well beyond what we've seen.
You can argue that this is speculation, but that's ignoring the economic reality of the kind of "correction" you refer to. As proof, you only have to look at the job fallout from the correction in the fall of '08.
No, about 1/3 of the stimulus bill (original price tag, $787 billion) passed in Feb. 2009 was tax cuts:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...d-claims-democrats-passed-25-tax-cuts-last-y/
On the effect of this stuff, I suppose we can just agree to disagree/.