faith is boolean

[ib1yysguy]

Have you ever seen the test conducted?

There have been numerous tests done about meditation and the power of positive thought. That doesn't have anything to do with God or religious faith, as you claimed (even though you claim you didn't claim it). Thats why I asked you for what conclusion you would draw if such a test were to in fact return a statistically significant result. (And no, conclusions based on tests of hypothesizes aren't taboo - they're required).

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Except when you said the purpose of the experiment was to

Idiot.... RELIGIOUS faith IS a form of Spiritual faith! In order for you to draw the conclusion that humans who practice rituals of Spiritual faith, have no benefit or advantage in doing so, you need to conduct the experiment and observe the data. If you conclude there is no discernible difference, this supports your argument against both religious faith and spiritual faith in general. However, if you conclude there IS a positive difference, you will have verified that humans do indeed practice such rituals to their advantage as a species.

The experiment has no "religious" conditions, it is not required that you conduct it according to any particular "religious" doctrine, and the results would neither support or refute any particular religion or religious belief. It's not a test to "prove God exists" or to confirm faith in religious belief in any way. It is merely a test to determine the significance of spiritual ritual in humans, as it relates to quality of life. Nothing more complex that that, so don't make it more complex.

 

[ib1yysguy]

So you admit you lied about it not being about religious faith.

 

[Beefy]

So you admit you lied about it not being about religious faith.

LOL Yeah right! At this point, Dix is in spin mode, changing the conditions under which his failed argument was made.

There will be name calling, claims that what was said actually was not said, and then a pontification that we are just to obtuse to understand that what he said means something entirely differently than his words denote.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Have you ever seen the test conducted?

There have been numerous tests done about meditation and the power of positive thought. That doesn't have anything to do with God or religious faith, as you claimed (even though you claim you didn't claim it). Thats why I asked you for what conclusion you would draw if such a test were to in fact return a statistically significant result. (And no, conclusions based on tests of hypothesizes aren't taboo - they're required).

You seriously need to go back, take your time, and READ this thread. I have made absolutely NO statement about God, or argument for the belief in a God. We are talking about Spirituality, and the practice of certain rituals associated with Spirituality. I gave you a valid test to determine if there is anything to Spirituality in humans, if it manifests itself into a better quality of life for the individual or not. You have refused to accept the experiment as legitimate, tried to destroy the credibility of it as not being 'scientific' and most recently, lied outright about the intents and purposes of such a test. What is the matter? You afraid of something here? Could it be, you are afraid that such a test might not produce results you would want to admit? What kind of fucked up scientist are you?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

LOL Yeah right! At this point, Dix is in spin mode, changing the conditions under which his failed argument was made.

There will be name calling, claims that what was said actually was not said, and then a pontification that we are just to obtuse to understand that what he said means something entirely differently than his words denote.

Where has my argument failed, Beefhead? Please point that out, because the way I see it, my argument has been valid all along, and I continue to get post after post from airheads like you, who want to just flat out LIE about reality!

 

[ib1yysguy]

I have made absolutely NO statement about God

RELIGIOUS faith IS a form of Spiritual faith!

in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith.

Hmmm... what could you have meant by all that talk of religious and spiritual faith if it didn't have anything to do with God... my guess is that since we were talking about GOD that you were also talking about GOD when you were talking about RELIGIOUS FAITH.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So you admit you lied about it not being about religious faith.

It's not about 'religious' faith... it could be.... if you wanted to make it about religious faith.... but that wasn't mentioned in the criteria for the test. If I conducted a medical test to study immune deficiency, would it be a test about AIDS? Not really, it is a test to study immune deficiency, of which the AIDS virus is a part of, but the test itself is not focused on AIDS. Wow, talk about being deliberately obtuse, this takes the fucking cake!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Hmmm... what could you have meant by all that talk of religious and spiritual faith if it didn't have anything to do with God... my guess is that since we were talking about GOD that you were also talking about GOD when you were talking about RELIGIOUS FAITH.

Why do you automatically associate spirituality with God? Spiritual faith includes, but is not limited to, Religious faith. My experiment doesn't make any assumptions, conclusions, or theories regarding "religious" faith, or "religion" or the existence of a "God" in any way. It does include basic spiritual rituals found in religious faith, but also found in generic human spirituality. You simply can't be so ignorant as to believe all spirituality is centered around specific religious beliefs and the existence of a God, can you?

 

[Beefy]

Seriously Dixie. Seriously.

You can't be for real.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Seriously Dixie. Seriously.

You can't be for real.

Look you lazy ass mutherfuck... since you obviously WON'T take the time to go back an read the entire thread, I will give you this synopsis of events thus far...

Original Post Argument= Faith is boolean.
Counterpoint: Faith is not boolean, it is binary, and we all have faith in something.
Second Argument= RELIGIOUS faith is invalid compared to SCIENCE faith.
Counterpoint: Aspects of Spirituality (i.e.; religious faith) and effects on humans can be studied with Science.
Third Argument= Spirituality is not testable.
Counterpoint: 'The Experiment' and valid scientific criteria is presented.
Fourth Argument= The Experiment is scientifically invalid.
Counterpoint: Proof the experiment is not scientifically invalid.
Fifth Argument: Experiment doesn't prove existence of God.
Counterpoint: Experiment was never intended to prove existence of God.
Sixth Argument: Experiment deals with RELIGIOUS faith!

We are going in circles now. The experiment I presented, is a perfectly legitimate and valid scientific way to examine and observe the effects of certain rituals associated with spiritual (incl. religious) beliefs and customs. It makes no inference to any specific religious dogma or doctrine, it requires no form of 'God worship' or supernatural belief. It is a simple behavioral experiment that could be conducted on any number of subjects in a controlled scientific environment, and provide observation and possible conclusions on the question of effect in quality of human life. I've been debating for three pages, the actual 'scientific' validity of the test itself, and now that we finally have it established, you come in and attempt to twist the argument back to where we originated, or close to it. I am done here, there is nothing more to debate with the closed-minded, you have made your conclusions without the test.

 

[Don Quixote]

Look you lazy ass mutherfuck... since you obviously WON'T take the time to go back an read the entire thread, I will give you this synopsis of events thus far...

Original Post Argument= Faith is boolean.
Counterpoint: Faith is not boolean, it is binary, and we all have faith in something.
Second Argument= RELIGIOUS faith is invalid compared to SCIENCE faith.
Counterpoint: Aspects of Spirituality (i.e.; religious faith) and effects on humans can be studied with Science.
Third Argument= Spirituality is not testable.
Counterpoint: 'The Experiment' and valid scientific criteria is presented.
Fourth Argument= The Experiment is scientifically invalid.
Counterpoint: Proof the experiment is not scientifically invalid.
Fifth Argument: Experiment doesn't prove existence of God.
Counterpoint: Experiment was never intended to prove existence of God.
Sixth Argument: Experiment deals with RELIGIOUS faith!

We are going in circles now. The experiment I presented, is a perfectly legitimate and valid scientific way to examine and observe the effects of certain rituals associated with spiritual (incl. religious) beliefs and customs. It makes no inference to any specific religious dogma or doctrine, it requires no form of 'God worship' or supernatural belief. It is a simple behavioral experiment that could be conducted on any number of subjects in a controlled scientific environment, and provide observation and possible conclusions on the question of effect in quality of human life. I've been debating for three pages, the actual 'scientific' validity of the test itself, and now that we finally have it established, you come in and attempt to twist the argument back to where we originated, or close to it. I am done here, there is nothing more to debate with the closed-minded, you have made your conclusions without the test.

i was raised christian science and take in most of what you espouse minus the 'god' aspect

i am also a hypnotist and have seen/perceived mind over matter

i think the potential of the human brain is limitless, including mutating 'reality'

i am well aware of the power of positive thinking and not only practice meditation but teach it

the godhead is within us all

i do not need a book or theology or a morality as taught by others

i have my own developed over my lifetime

i great deal of my criticism was aimed at the judeo/christian/muslim system but not limited to it

ps my definition of evil is doing unto others without their permission save where i need to prevent someone doing unto me first...

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

i was raised christian science and take in most of what you espouse minus the 'god' aspect

I have not introduced a "god aspect" although the Atheists have continually introduced the concept of God into this debate. They are virtually unable to have a rational conversation about human spirituality without invoking God or Religion into the mix. They are simply obsessed with refuting God, and anything that is remotely similar to what they associate with a God, they immediately attack and categorize as "religious superstitions."

i am also a hypnotist and have seen/perceived mind over matter... i think the potential of the human brain is limitless, including mutating 'reality'

Don't know about 'mutating reality' there, that's a little far out for me, but I agree the human mind is very powerful. Human connection and fidelity with Spirituality is strong as well, it is one of the truly unique attributes we possess as humans.

i am well aware of the power of positive thinking and not only practice meditation but teach it

Sounds as if you have a good healthy dose of that 'Boolean Faith' you started this thread about. Through your rituals of meditation, you are essentially practicing Spirituality, without the Religious aspects. If you can appreciate the value of meditation, as you seem to indicate here, it shouldn't be difficult to understand, those who practice religious faith, are practicing the same thing, and it is of equal importance to them.

the godhead is within us all

This is certainly a theory shared by many. It is also human Spirituality.

i do not need a book or theology or a morality as taught by others

i have my own developed over my lifetime

Well this is great, I never said you had to have a theology or morality as taught by others, never tried to get you to go to church or accept Christ as your savior... I haven't mentioned religious beliefs here. Our discussion centers on human faith, and how humans are bound to their faith.

i great deal of my criticism was aimed at the judeo/christian/muslim system but not limited to it

I understood that from your initial post, and told you as much in my first response. I recognize an attack on religion, no matter how you want to disguise it. What you should try and understand is, people who practice Judeo-Christian beliefs, do so for the same exact reason you practice and teach meditation. They find value in their everyday lives by following the tenants of their faith, and it is their faith, not yours. They don't try to attack your practice of meditation, or condemn you for it in any way, so why do you do this to them? Sure, I realize there are things you don't agree with concerning their religious beliefs, but don't they have the same rights you have, to practice their beliefs in the way they feel is right for them?

ps my definition of evil is doing unto others without their permission save where i need to prevent someone doing unto me first...

But when you blatantly attack religious faith, aren't you doing unto the religious without their permission? Wouldn't it be far less hypocritical for you to accept that religious people have faith in something, just as you have faith in something, just as we all have faith in something? I don't need to attack religion to be opposed to religious beliefs. I am not a member of any organized religion, and I actually think much of what passes for religious doctrine today, is detrimental to humanity in many ways. However, I respect the right of other human beings to exercise their faith as they feel compelled, as I expect to be able to exercise my own faith.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Meditation may or may not have anything to do with spirituality.

Focusing one's attention and relaxing has nothing to do with spirituality.

Could you describe your spirituality, Dixie?

 

[ib1yysguy]

Meditation may or may not have anything to do with spirituality.

Focusing one's attention and relaxing has nothing to do with spirituality.

Could you describe your spirituality, Dixie?

I'm still trying to get him to specify what conclusion the study would allow him to make if he got a positive result. He wont say it, but he already has anyway - the study is about determining the purposefulness of religious/spiritual faith. Of course the study wouldn't prove anything of the kind.

 

[ib1yysguy]

And yes, Dixie introduced God and RELIGIOUS faith into this argument several times.

 

[Don Quixote]

I have not introduced a "god aspect" although the Atheists have continually introduced the concept of God into this debate. They are virtually unable to have a rational conversation about human spirituality without invoking God or Religion into the mix. They are simply obsessed with refuting God, and anything that is remotely similar to what they associate with a God, they immediately attack and categorize as "religious superstitions."



Don't know about 'mutating reality' there, that's a little far out for me, but I agree the human mind is very powerful. Human connection and fidelity with Spirituality is strong as well, it is one of the truly unique attributes we possess as humans.



Sounds as if you have a good healthy dose of that 'Boolean Faith' you started this thread about. Through your rituals of meditation, you are essentially practicing Spirituality, without the Religious aspects. If you can appreciate the value of meditation, as you seem to indicate here, it shouldn't be difficult to understand, those who practice religious faith, are practicing the same thing, and it is of equal importance to them.



This is certainly a theory shared by many. It is also human Spirituality.



Well this is great, I never said you had to have a theology or morality as taught by others, never tried to get you to go to church or accept Christ as your savior... I haven't mentioned religious beliefs here. Our discussion centers on human faith, and how humans are bound to their faith.



I understood that from your initial post, and told you as much in my first response. I recognize an attack on religion, no matter how you want to disguise it. What you should try and understand is, people who practice Judeo-Christian beliefs, do so for the same exact reason you practice and teach meditation. They find value in their everyday lives by following the tenants of their faith, and it is their faith, not yours. They don't try to attack your practice of meditation, or condemn you for it in any way, so why do you do this to them? Sure, I realize there are things you don't agree with concerning their religious beliefs, but don't they have the same rights you have, to practice their beliefs in the way they feel is right for them?



But when you blatantly attack religious faith, aren't you doing unto the religious without their permission? Wouldn't it be far less hypocritical for you to accept that religious people have faith in something, just as you have faith in something, just as we all have faith in something? I don't need to attack religion to be opposed to religious beliefs. I am not a member of any organized religion, and I actually think much of what passes for religious doctrine today, is detrimental to humanity in many ways. However, I respect the right of other human beings to exercise their faith as they feel compelled, as I expect to be able to exercise my own faith.

i find religious faith based on less than factual matter distasteful

furthermore, when it is used (and it has been) to attack me i find it even more repugnant - when it is used to tell others than they will burn in a hell of their religions creation i find blatantly savage

when it is used to teach children and adults to fear the wrath of god i find it inhuman


fear and hate are never the answer

so if you find my dislike of organized religions that preach fear and hate distasteful then we cannot agree

i live by 'you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'

a bit of humor - i once answered that door one saturday morning naked and with a hand and a half broadsword in hand because some religious zealots decided to impose themselves on me..also was not yet awake

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

i find religious faith based on less than factual matter distasteful

furthermore, when it is used (and it has been) to attack me i find it even more repugnant - when it is used to tell others than they will burn in a hell of their religions creation i find blatantly savage

when it is used to teach children and adults to fear the wrath of god i find it inhuman


fear and hate are never the answer

so if you find my dislike of organized religions that preach fear and hate distasteful then we cannot agree

i live by 'you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'

a bit of humor - i once answered that door one saturday morning naked and with a hand and a half broadsword in hand because some religious zealots decided to impose themselves on me..also was not yet awake

Several points... All religion is based on faith, not facts. I don't particularly like "scientists" telling me I evolved from a single-cell organism following the Big Bang, as if that were a fact instead of their faith.

I don't blame you for being bitter about being attacked, but you were not attacked by all religion nor all people of religious faith. It is rather bigoted and prejudiced to hold disdain for an entire group, based on the actions of a few.

As for Hell, if it exists, I seriously doubt it was created by Religion. Teaching followers of a religious faith, to uphold their faith by pleasing a god or forsaking the devil, is just a part of the religious faith and beliefs, as far as I know, they don't force you to participate in the faith, so why are you upset about how they practice their faith within their own group?

Most religious faiths I have had the pleasure of knowing, teach love and compassion, and God's understanding and forgiveness. As I said before, the Christian faith believes God sacrificed his own son for us to be free from sin. There was nothing threatening about that, no hate or fear, just pure love. The teachings of Jesus are full of examples of forgiveness and love for each other, and refrains from casting judgment or being prejudiced against others. I can't speak for all denominations, or all religious faiths, but the ones I have been around, do not attempt to invoke fear or hate in any way.

I am not here to argue for Religious faith, only to point out, we all have our personal faith, and we are all entitled to practice our faith how we wish, without persecution, without interference. You said earlier that you practice and teach meditation, well, what if some religious group demanded that you stop doing that? What if they likened it to 'devil worship' or something, and were posting about it all over the message boards in a fundamental war against what you are doing? Would you be able to understand their point of view, would it be alright for them to be attacking your faith in meditation? I would be right here by your side, telling them all to go to hell and leave you alone, just as I am defending their right to practice their faith, against you now.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I'm still trying to get him to specify what conclusion the study would allow him to make if he got a positive result. He wont say it, but he already has anyway - the study is about determining the purposefulness of religious/spiritual faith. Of course the study wouldn't prove anything of the kind.

We've already been over this, you aren't reading the posts. The Scientific Test I proposed, would seek to determine if there is any benefit to the quality of life in humans who practice a prescribed ritual associated with human spirituality. The test, if conducted properly, would indeed indicate if there is (or is not) a benefit in quality of life for the tested individuals. Of course it wouldn't "prove" anything, because Science doesn't ever "prove" anything! Ask anyone who has a degree in Science! It would offer observable evidence, on which we may draw conclusions and base theories.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Meditation may or may not have anything to do with spirituality.

Focusing one's attention and relaxing has nothing to do with spirituality.

Could you describe your spirituality, Dixie?

Meditation is a form of Spirituality. It is centered around exploring one's inner self, which is not a physical state, therefore it must be spiritual in nature.

My personal faith has nothing to do with this debate. I have stated I am a Spiritualist, I believe in a power greater than self, and I practice my faith devoutly because I believe in it, just as you believe in your faith. I don't go to church... I don't have a problem going, I attend funerals and weddings in churches... I participate in public prayers, mostly out of respect for others religious faiths. Where religions speak of a "God" and people describe God as a "He", I see this entity as more of an energy force, circulating through our universe. My meditation and spiritual rituals are centered on tapping into that energy force for guidance and reassurance.

Now, here is the kicker, I am at a distinct advantage over you, because I already know full well, this energy exists. Not only have I felt it, and tapped into it, I have seen the results of doing so, and I believe. I can't prove it to someone who hasn't experienced it, no one can, you have to first have faith that it exists. Once you have had this experience I speak of, you will also believe in it, just as you will believe a science journal now.