Executions largely confined to the southern US

[KingCondanomation]

This is not a zero sum comparison. Courts can convict many people wrongly and an innocent person could wind up dead. On the other hand, there are innocent prison guards, other inmates and people killed from prisoners escaping, along with hits ordered from prison. Then there is as well a deterrent to not kill for non-passion (contract) killings.

Given the big advances in DNA and other technology, that balance is shifting and almost the only people you hear about on death row being found innocent are those who were convicted prior to those advances in technology.

 

[Socrtease]

But a state isn't deciding to kill someone, a jury of my peers is. I am not trusting government.

Yes and the ONLY case the jury gets is the one created by the state. If the state uses crooked medical examiners, like Texas did for years, or allows cops to present falsified evidence, like in Illinois, then the jury doesn't KNOW they are condemning someone that has been wrongfully put before them. You use that line of reasoning to assuage the nagging in the back of your mind that you KNOW the state government is mediocre at best at doing ANYTHING it does, but with the death penalty, some vengeance, ANY vengeance is better than no one getting convicted

 

[Socrtease]

This is not a zero sum comparison. Courts can convict many people wrongly and an innocent person could wind up dead. On the other hand, there are innocent prison guards, other inmates and people killed from prisoners escaping, along with hits ordered from prison. Then there is as well a deterrent to not kill for non-passion (contract) killings.

Given the big advances in DNA and other technology, that balance is shifting and almost the only people you hear about on death row being found innocent are those who were convicted prior to those advances in technology.

DNA and forensic evidence is available in less than 30% of all criminal cases. We have allowed junk science like hair comparison to convict people, even though everyone knows hair science is shit. Anything to get a conviction. And if you don't believe that look at how hard DA's fight to keep the person in prison even AFTER DNA says they could not have been the person. They would rather preserve their conviction rate than admit that they prosecuted the wrong guy.

 

[Socrtease]

This is not a zero sum comparison. Courts can convict many people wrongly and an innocent person could wind up dead. On the other hand, there are innocent prison guards, other inmates and people killed from prisoners escaping, along with hits ordered from prison. Then there is as well a deterrent to not kill for non-passion (contract) killings.

Given the big advances in DNA and other technology, that balance is shifting and almost the only people you hear about on death row being found innocent are those who were convicted prior to those advances in technology.

So let me get this straight. The mob hitman is going to think twice about killing someone because of the death penalty, or ANY contract killer for that matter. Do you know how antisocial or psychopathic you have to be to agree to kill for money in the first place? So much so that ANY possible punishment is not going to act as a deterrent. And as far as your statement goes to the fact that yeah some guilty people might be executed but at least we are killing those prison guard murderers, shows that you view the DP as utilitarian. So long as people are getting punished to prove that we are not going to tollerated these kinds of murders, all is well.

 

[blackascoal]

This is not a zero sum comparison. Courts can convict many people wrongly and an innocent person could wind up dead. On the other hand, there are innocent prison guards, other inmates and people killed from prisoners escaping, along with hits ordered from prison. Then there is as well a deterrent to not kill for non-passion (contract) killings.

Given the big advances in DNA and other technology, that balance is shifting and almost the only people you hear about on death row being found innocent are those who were convicted prior to those advances in technology.

That's not true brother, and the Innocence Project has the proof.

DNA and other forensic evidence is not always available, and many of those on death row are there because of the most unreliable of all evidence, eyewitrness evidence.

I think the middle ground, if there has to be one, is ..

1. Death sentences must be handed down by a panel of judges under review.
2. Death sentences must be accompanied by solid DNA and forensic evidence.
3. All death sentences are subject to review by the US Department of Justice.

 

[blackascoal]

DNA and forensic evidence is available in less than 30% of all criminal cases. We have allowed junk science like hair comparison to convict people, even though everyone knows hair science is shit. Anything to get a conviction. And if you don't believe that look at how hard DA's fight to keep the person in prison even AFTER DNA says they could not have been the person. They would rather preserve their conviction rate than admit that they prosecuted the wrong guy.

Very true.

 

[Socrtease]

That's not true brother, and the Innocence Project has the proof.

DNA and other forensic evidence is not always available, and many of those on death row are there because of the most unreliable of all evidence, eyewitrness evidence.

I think the middle ground, if there has to be one, is ..

1. Death sentences must be handed down by a panel of judges under review.
2. Death sentences must be accompanied by solid DNA and forensic evidence.
3. All death sentences are subject to review by the US Department of Justice.

Eyewitness testimony is inherently unreliable. Defense attorney's have tried for years to get courts to allow testimony as to the unreliability of Eyewitness testimony to no avail. There is a man from El Paso Texas that spent 16 years in prison based on the testimony of the victim who said she could identify him because he was right on top of her. The only problem was, she was wrong, and it took 16 years to correct that. If that had been a death penalty case he would have probably already be dead. It took 16 years to clear him, but conservatives will tell you that is too long. Innocence be damned.

 

[KingCondanomation]

Yes and the ONLY case the jury gets is the one created by the state. If the state uses crooked medical examiners, like Texas did for years, or allows cops to present falsified evidence, like in Illinois, then the jury doesn't KNOW they are condemning someone that has been wrongfully put before them. You use that line of reasoning to assuage the nagging in the back of your mind that you KNOW the state government is mediocre at best at doing ANYTHING it does, but with the death penalty, some vengeance, ANY vengeance is better than no one getting convicted

They would know if the defense attorney brings it up. And citing past problems with the system does not mean they are current problems. From what I've seen there is an army of interested civil liberties lawyers who review DP cases specifically to try and find out if they are wrong.

 

[Socrtease]

They would know if the defense attorney brings it up. And citing past problems with the system does not mean they are current problems. From what I've seen there is an army of interested civil liberties lawyers who review DP cases specifically to try and find out if they are wrong.

True, and the wrong things aren't discovered for years afterward. And for you conservatives, all that time on death row is just an injustice.

 

[Cancel3]

They would know if the defense attorney brings it up. And citing past problems with the system does not mean they are current problems. From what I've seen there is an army of interested civil liberties lawyers who review DP cases specifically to try and find out if they are wrong.

The defense attorney may or may not be allowed to bring it up.

And until the past problems are shown to be completely solved or eradicated, they should be considered current problems.

This is a life we are talking about. The burden of proof of whether the past problems have been solved should rest with those claiming they are, and those trying to kill someone.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Which is more barbaric... putting someone to death or putting someone in a cage for life with no hope of getting out? I would say the latter is the harsher punishment.

That said, the death penalty should only be applied when certainty exists. All those on death row prior to the late 90's should have their sentences commuted to life without parole. There was too much discrimination in the past and too many that have been found innocent since their incarceration.

But people like Bundy, McVeigh, Manson, Dahmer, Watermark etc... should be put down.

HA I love being outrageous.

 

[KingCondanomation]

True, and the wrong things aren't discovered for years afterward. And for you conservatives, all that time on death row is just an injustice.

You forget what you are arguing against. WHERE they spend the time is not going to be as big an injustice as how much time. Were they to just get life in prison, then there would be far fewer people interested in their case and looking to see if they were innocent and thus less chance of overturning a bad conviction.

I have seen many wrongful convictions based on old convictions where DNA evidence did not even exist at the time, how about newer DP convictions overturned? Don't see many of them. People already are a lot more cautious in applying it.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I think most proponents of the death penalty view it more as an act of justice than a deterrent to crime. Any so-called deterrent is more of a bonus.

Though I would argue that in Singapore crime is heavily deterred due to their harsh sentences for a variety of criminal acts. However that's just assumption on my part.

I think you argument is flawed though because you could probably say the same thing for life sentences. There is no study to show it deters crime, therefore we should reduce life sentences?

Japan and Singapore have simialar cultures, but Japan has much lower crime. Japan also has 1/10th the people per capita in jail and doesn't make the death penalty mandatory (unlike in Singapore, which has it mandatory for murder and drug dealing no matter the circumstances).

 

[KingCondanomation]

That's not true brother, and the Innocence Project has the proof.

DNA and other forensic evidence is not always available, and many of those on death row are there because of the most unreliable of all evidence, eyewitrness evidence.

I think the middle ground, if there has to be one, is ..

1. Death sentences must be handed down by a panel of judges under review.
2. Death sentences must be accompanied by solid DNA and forensic evidence.
3. All death sentences are subject to review by the US Department of Justice.

I can certainly accept number 2.
Numbers 1 and 3 are just going to add to detractors arguments that it costs too much and should be abolished.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It's all a matter of how violent a society is. The process you use to apathize with a person dying on death row is very much the same process they use when killing people. As long as our society accepts cruelty, we will have far higher crime rates than those societies that do not.

 

[KingCondanomation]

Japan and Singapore have simialar cultures, but Japan has much lower crime. Japan also has 1/10th the people per capita in jail and doesn't make the death penalty mandatory (unlike in Singapore, which has it mandatory for murder and drug dealing no matter the circumstances).

More FALSE made up Waterfacts. Singapore has a homicide rate that is slightly lower or much lower than Japan depending on which numbers used:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate[/ame]

 

[KingCondanomation]

It's all a matter of how violent a society is. The process you use to apathize with a person dying on death row is very much the same process they use when killing people. As long as our society accepts cruelty, we will have far higher crime rates than those societies that do not.

False.
The most violent cities in America: Detroit, DC, Chicago, etc... are all Liberal Democrat strongholds where Conservatives and Republicans are near non-existent and few believers in the DP.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

So let me get this straight. The mob hitman is going to think twice about killing someone because of the death penalty, or ANY contract killer for that matter. Do you know how antisocial or psychopathic you have to be to agree to kill for money in the first place? So much so that ANY possible punishment is not going to act as a deterrent. And as far as your statement goes to the fact that yeah some guilty people might be executed but at least we are killing those prison guard murderers, shows that you view the DP as utilitarian. So long as people are getting punished to prove that we are not going to tollerated these kinds of murders, all is well.

That pretty much describes the Chinese approach. Utilitarianism. It's better that an innocent man get executed than a guilty man walk free.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

That's not true brother, and the Innocence Project has the proof.

DNA and other forensic evidence is not always available, and many of those on death row are there because of the most unreliable of all evidence, eyewitrness evidence.

I think the middle ground, if there has to be one, is ..

1. Death sentences must be handed down by a panel of judges under review.
2. Death sentences must be accompanied by solid DNA and forensic evidence.
3. All death sentences are subject to review by the US Department of Justice.

I'll go one further. #4. Steps 1,2 and 3 must be completed within 6 months of conviction. If the first three steps result in upholding the death penalty then the convicted must be executed within 6 months of the review being completed.

 

[KingCondanomation]

That pretty much describes the Chinese approach. Utilitarianism. It's better that an innocent man get executed than a guilty man walk free.

But there is more to it than that, the guilty man if in prison can kill fellow inmates, prison guards, can possibly order hits from prison or could escape and kill again.