Don't ask, don't tell

Why is it that the right wing conservatives, religious fanatics, fascists, and other assorted hate groups, KKK for instance, focus in on gays? What do they have in common? Narrow-minded views of life for sure but what else? The need to have a foe? Strict adherence to ideology? Lack of experience immaturity? I guess all of the above, debating them is like debating a believer in astrology, reason has no place. And what purpose does it serve for them? Does it make them feel good in some way? For those who consider homosexuality a choice, I offer my usual advice, switch hit and let us know how it goes. If it is a choice then you made it once, do it again, you may find the real you.

Gay marriage argument from a conservative. http://www.newsweek.com/id/229957


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GssdKvp4pLo&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Circular Logic Caller: Arguing over Gay Marriage - A.E. #584[/ame]

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/home/leah/index.html
http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/p/ProGayMarriage.htm
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0684824043/scottbidstrupshoA/"]Amazon.com: CASE FOR SAME SEX MARRIAGE: From Sexual Liberty to Civilized Commitment (9780684824048): William N. Eskridge: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WX7GRQNRL.@@AMEPARAM@@51WX7GRQNRL[/ame]
 
Southern Man said:
So ya'll admit it ain't normal natural moral and healthy then? :)
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No one is admitting any such thing. Normal is about comparing to the masses, and that has no meaning for me or on this topic. Its been shown that homosexuality is natural. Morality is something that each person determines for themselves, or the society determines for the group. But in the case of the US, that morality is not your biblical lore. And healthy is another comparative measure. There are situations under which sodomy is unhealthy. But these sexual practices are not justification for anything.

What we are arguing is that those are not standards that are used when dealing with any other group in society. And yet you use them as excuses for why you want to continue to discriminate against homosexuals.
 
I say that it is about time that the military allowed gays to serve openly. They have been serving honorably for years now but have been forced to stay in the closet while doing so.
 
Actually I've never advocated discriminating against queers. All I've asked for is not be lied to. Queers and their enablers should simply admit that its not normal moral natural and healthy. My argument against queers serving in the military is that poor lifestyle decisions are indicative of making poor decisions elsewhere.
 
Southern Man said:
Actually I've never advocated discriminating against queers. All I've asked for is not be lied to. Queers and their enablers should simply admit that its not normal moral natural and healthy. My argument against queers serving in the military is that poor lifestyle decisions are indicative of making poor decisions elsewhere.
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Total bullshit, SM.

You want to use these excuses against gays, but have not advocated using them against any other group.


Have you made mention of straights with unhealthy lifestyles not being allowed in the military?

Have you made mention of any other behavior that is not deemed "normal" (but is not illegal) making someone unfit for military service?

You keep bringing up natural, in spite of the fact that the National Geographic Society has shown documented evidence of homosexual behavior in many other species of animals. And theses examples were not about dominance.

Moral? If someone is gay, how is it that they are automatically immoral? By christian morality it MIGHT be true. But the US gov't does not follow the christian religion exclusively.

And how is it that you find yourself able to judge who is immoral and unhealthy, without first determining whether they are sexually active. You want to deny them the ability to serve in the military based solely on who they are attracted to, not what they actually do.



You have not advocated discriminating against queers? You actually typed that out?? You don't want to be lied to, but you don't mind telling that lie?

You want them to not be allowed to marry or serve in the military. There is no rational justification for either, but there is especially none for discriminating against them serving in the military.
 
Southern Man said:
Actually I've never advocated discriminating against queers. All I've asked for is not be lied to. Queers and their enablers should simply admit that its not normal moral natural and healthy. My argument against queers serving in the military is that poor lifestyle decisions are indicative of making poor decisions elsewhere.
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your argument is decimated by the stellar military careers of many many gays and lesbians.
 
military-gays-1948.jpg


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Southern Man said:
Prove it. :)
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http://www.palmcenter.org/node/419

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1958246,00.html

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL30113.pdf

From the 3rd link:
"First, we found that the large majority of the discharges for homosexual conduct are based on the statements of service members who identify themselves as homosexual, as opposed to cases involving homosexual acts. The services believe that most of these statements— although not all of them—involve service members who voluntarily elect to disclose their sexual orientation to their peers, supervisors or commanders. The increase in the number of discharges for homosexual conduct since 1994 is attributable to this increase in statement cases. Discharges for homosexual acts and marriages has declined by 20% over the past three years [1994-1997]. Second, most of those discharged under the policy are junior personnel with very little time in the military, and most of the increase in discharges for homosexual conduct has occurred in this sector. The number of cases involving career service members is relatively small. Third, the great majority of discharges for homosexual conduct are uncontested and are processed administratively. Finally, more than 98% of all members discharged in Fiscal Year 1997 under the policy received honorable discharges. (Separation of enlisted members in their first 180 days of military service are generally uncharacterized.) Discharges under other than honorable conditions or courts-martial for consensual homosexual conduct are infrequent and have invariably involved aggravating circumstances or additional charges."
 
Southern Man said:
No, I just get tired of your insistence that they have been. :)
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I am sure you get tired of seeing them refuted. I have done it over and over. Your habit of selectively ignoring the facts does not change those facts. Nor does your attempts to make snide personal remarks.
 
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