Do soldiers fight for a flag, or what it represents?

[Amadeus]

incredibly stupid word salad. Your trolling is pathetic

Well, it's the bottom line of your ideology, and you can't seriously deny it. You've said repeatedly that human rights is a cute or quaint idea, and that economic growth is the only metric of a nation. You've repeatedly said that America should get out of the 'human rights' business, and allow nations to do whatever they want (while pushing for closer relations to such nations). What exactly are soldiers dying for, if not those values?

 

[dukkha]

Ken nailed it. That cartoon is perfect.

The whole NFL debate reminds me of when the right was pushing for a flag-burning amendment to the Constitution. Essentially, undermining core American values in the name of "protecting" America. Very backwards.

no. that was about the first amendment. protected speech from government sanction
The first doesn't apply to the NFL ( and hopefully i need not explain this) in that it's contract law

 

[Amadeus]

you would think this is a given/known idea. and yes some who die -do actually die for the flag in battle.
Battle flags are a time honored custom

You mean that the values behind the flag are a good enough smokescreen to fool the plebs.

 

[dukkha]

Well, it's the bottom line of your ideology, and you can't seriously deny it. You've said repeatedly that human rights is a cute or quaint idea, and that economic growth is the only metric of a nation. You've repeatedly said that America should get out of the 'human rights' business, and allow nations to do whatever they want (while pushing for closer relations to such nations). What exactly are soldiers dying for, if not those values?

ridiculous. you conflate "soldiers" to the prosecution of foreign policy. I am not going to waste my time unscrambling that mess, other then to say soldiers (usually) fight and die for their country-not policies

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Never having been under a hailstorm of enemy fire myself, I am not in a position to say.

I always got the impression from my great-Uncle, who was at the Battle of the Bulge, that he was fighting for his friends, his mates who in the foxholes with him. I believe to him, the job was to protect his friends and to defeat Hitler so they could all get back home in one piece. I don't know if they were thinking about flags or constitutions foremost in their minds.

I also have a letter from a distant great uncle on my mother's side of the family from the civil war. Written to his wife, circa 1864. He was serving in a Pennsylvania regiment. You would be amazed at how articulate and thoughtful your average Union soldier could be. His writing seems to make it clear he felt their mission was to end slavery in the southern states. Both as a moral, and practical imperative. Gripping stuff, man!

Those civil war letters are incredible. A saw a comedian once do a comparison between letters from the civil war & letters from the Iraq war, and it was pretty hilarious. Kind of sad, but hilarious.

 

[dukkha]

You mean that the values behind the flag are a good enough smokescreen to fool the plebs.

whatever. that statement is unfounded,and sounds hostile to patriotism ( not to be confused w/jingoism)
but since you do not expound on that simplistic nonsense, i'm not about to try and unpack it.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

that was on both sides of the civil war-the men who fought had ideals or simply fought for their state or the union itself.

Ken Burns "Civil War" uses letters to follow a few men on both sides thru their civil war battles.
It's a great series to watch

I was watching Ken Burns Vietnam series, which prompted the thread. I don't want to put any words in his mouth, but one of the vets was saying that he really celebrated the protests that were going on in America at that time, and that they represented what he was fighting for.

That's why the NFL thing reminds me of the flag-burning amendment. I don't think people realize how unique our right to burn the flag is. It's amazing. In some countries, as we know, you can't even say a critical word about the government or country. Being able to actually burn the flag is the ultimate counter to that - our allowance of it, as offensive as it might be, is a profound expression of liberty.

 

[Amadeus]

whatever. that statement is unfounded,and sounds hostile to patriotism ( not to be confused w/jingoism)
but since you do not expound on that simplistic nonsense, i'm not about to try and unpack it.

What do Russians fight for, for example? Keeping in mind that Putin controls most aspects of their lives, and pillages the Russian economy. Clear it up for me. What does a Russian solider die for?

 

[Stretch]

Of course. But the people doling out the consequences should ask themselves why they needed to make what Kap did about the flag, instead of talking for even a minute about what his protest was actually about.

Blind???

It's getting a little boring to keep saying the same thing over and over ad nauseum, but I'll say it one more time...and still in English, too. LOL

I don't care what people want to protest about...right or left. Everybody can speak all they want to according to the Constitution, the law and/or their employer's rules. Who in their right mind would NOT want to ensure that people of all races be treated equally? It's about HOW AND WHEN to deliver such messages in order to gain the most FAVORABLE impact for their cause.

If one's employer says it's OK on company time, fine. Do it. And, realize it's OTHER people's right to disagree with it.

Let them work it out with their employers, lawyers, unions, sponsors, whatever.

There are risks and rewards for public demonstrations. People need to be adults about it and be ready to receive acceptance or rejection of whatever they're standing up for. THAT is also the American way.

Kap forced his concerns by co-mingling his concerns with the American flag and the National Anthem. THIS has been the problem...NOT his concerns. He just didn't use common sense and FOCUS or ZERO IN if you will, and make it specific. He went with his emotions instead. He wanted the attention for himself, NOT his concerns by wearing pig cop socks, Che Guevara shirts, etc. When people have a true and sincere cause they are striving to bring national attention to, the last thing they would want is more focus on THEM instead of their message.

Then of course it snowballed and here's the convoluted results we end up with and the consequences that follow.

 

[dukkha]

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

That picture could support either view, imo. When I see it, I go right to what that flag represents.

Otherwise, it's just a piece of cloth.

 

[dukkha]

What do Russians fight for, for example? Keeping in mind that Putin controls most aspects of their lives, and pillages the Russian economy. Clear it up for me. What does a Russian solider die for?

ask a Russian soldier -how would I know?
my guess:Why do you think Russian soldiers died in the millions during WWII? ( Mother Russia)

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/39639/history-of-the-phrase-for-mother-russia

Motherland refers to a mother country, i.e. the place of one's birth, the place of one's ancestors, the place of origin of an ethnic group or immigrant, or a Metropole in contrast to its colonies. People often refer to Mother Russia as a personification of the Russian nation.

 

[dukkha]

That picture could support either view, imo. When I see it, I go right to what that flag represents.

Otherwise, it's just a piece of cloth.

I doubt those on Iwo Jima would agree, but you certainly have the right to that perspective

 

[Stretch]

Being able to actually burn the flag is the ultimate counter to that - our allowance of it, as offensive as it might be, is a profound expression of liberty.

Amazing how twisted we've become...DESTROYING something which represents a good thing. God help us.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

I doubt those on Iwo Jima would agree, but you certainly have the right to that perspective

Are you kidding me?

You think they'd say they were putting the lives on the line for cloth, and not what that cloth represents?

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Amazing how twisted we've become...DESTROYING something which represents a good thing. God help us.

It's uniquely American.

Look at Scalia's opinion on it. Completely paraphrasing, but he said that if he was king, of course he'd ban it - but this isn't a monarchy.

 

[Amadeus]

I think that the flag is a largely meaningless and arbitrary focus for patriotism. It is the values that allow you to live freely that should be saluted and fought for. When those values fail or are shown to be less than perfect, the flag can't fill that void.

A bull fights for the waving of a piece of cloth, any patriotism based on a flag is just as stupid and hollow.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

This thread has already been pretty illuminating.

There are really profound differences of opinion regarding what it means to be an American.

 

[Amadeus]

This thread has already been pretty illuminating.

There are really profound differences of opinion regarding what it means to be an American.

Those who need the flag as a focus for patriotism are often the least patriotic and have the least American values. Just look at Trump supporters. 100% flag focus, but have almost zero respect for human rights, are often sympathetic to Putin, and are all-around empty barrels. Or all cowboy hat, no cattle, to coin a phrase.

 

[Sailor]

Those who need the flag as a focus for patriotism are often the least patriotic and have the least American values. Just look at Trump supporters. 100% flag focus, but have almost zero respect for human rights, are often sympathetic to Putin, and are all-around empty barrels. Or all cowboy hat, no cattle, to coin a phrase.

Says the guy who ran to Canada. One can just make this shit up, seriously.