Dems set new low....

Darla said:
No, there is no fallacy, and since the majority of workers will consider the policies advocated by the chamber to be against their interests, I'm not too worried about where general opinion is going to fall on that.

I think that the right is so upset about this because they know it's going to work. They felt entitled to buy elections once Citizens United came down.

How dare there be consequences for their "free speech"???

Well there are.
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Yes there is. You are pretending you understand what the 'majority of workers' would think.

The majority of Chamber members are small and mid sized businesses. THAT is who the chamber protects. They also encourage overseas trading, bringing foreign jobs into the US, encouraging growth of the world wide economy.... they fight against job killing bills or pieces of bills.

So the 'consequences' are that you can say anything you want about them and they should be forced to prove your allegations wrong? That is a great mentality. I think that should be the Dem platform of the future. Slander? Liable? Defamation? No more! You can now say what ever you want about anyone or any group. It is up to them to prove you are not lying.
 
Isn't this one of those "Spare me the false outrage" bullshit posts? I seem to remember Republicans worshiping the feet of one amoral as hell Karl Rove who did do and say anything with out any substantiation to ruin his political oponnents. These are the same Republcians who founded the political smear technique of "Swift Boating" and have no fucking room to talk. My heart pumps piss for the hypocrits.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Maybe you missed the part where I said that nobody is complaining about NewsCorp engaging in commerce with furriners regarding their donation.

And what I am proclaiming is nothing more that what you have admitted: the Chamber accepts contributions from foreign corporations and the Chamber funds campaign activities. I just happen to also acknowledge the fungible nature of money, which you seem not to grasp.
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I understand it completely. It is you who is failing to grasp the fallacy of your argument. the nature of the money will never be different... it is how the unions get away with spending EVERY members money on elections even though some members may disagree with their doing so. If a member opts out, the union can simply say... well Johnny isn't paying anything, so we will take more from Suzie's dues for political purposes and Johnny can pay for other things Suzie needs. Technically Johnny doesn't pay for political ads, but the total amount spent doesn't change.

you are saying that because the Chamber has foreign members they can't contribute politically because the money is fungible. Which again goes back to my point.... by your standards, NO ONE who does any business or has any ties overseas can contribute unless they show Dung the paper trail of all their money to show it has been kept separate.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Isn't this one of those "Spare me the false outrage" bullshit posts? I seem to remember Republicans worshiping the feet of one amoral as hell Karl Rove who did do and say anything with out any substantiation to ruin his political oponnents. These are the same Republcians who founded the political smear technique of "Swift Boating" and have no fucking room to talk. My heart pumps piss for the hypocrits.
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Ah... back to another boogey man... when in doubt, just shout out Rove did it! rove did It!

Again.... way to stand up and show your true colors.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Isn't this one of those "Spare me the false outrage" bullshit posts? I seem to remember Republicans worshiping the feet of one amoral as hell Karl Rove who did do and say anything with out any substantiation to ruin his political oponnents. These are the same Republcians who founded the political smear technique of "Swift Boating" and have no fucking room to talk. My heart pumps piss for the hypocrits.
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Yep, it's the same guys alright.
 
Superfreak said:
I understand it completely. It is you who is failing to grasp the fallacy of your argument. the nature of the money will never be different... it is how the unions get away with spending EVERY members money on elections even though some members may disagree with their doing so. If a member opts out, the union can simply say... well Johnny isn't paying anything, so we will take more from Suzie's dues for political purposes and Johnny can pay for other things Suzie needs. Technically Johnny doesn't pay for political ads, but the total amount spent doesn't change.
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But they don't spend every member's money on political activity. Johnny pays less.


Superfreak said:
you are saying that because the Chamber has foreign members they can't contribute politically because the money is fungible. Which again goes back to my point.... by your standards, NO ONE who does any business or has any ties overseas can contribute unless they show Dung the paper trail of all their money to show it has been kept separate.
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No, I'm saying that if the Chamber wants to engage in campaign activity it should set up a separate entity that accepts only money from US companies and citizens and use money solely from that fund to pay for its political activities while disclosing all donors, just like the unions do. Otherwise, it shouldn't be surprised when it is criticized for using foreign money when it uses commingled funds.

And, for the third time now, you are misstating my standards. American companies that engage in commerce with furriners can contribute to the Chamber without any problems whatsoever. It's the direct contributions from foreign companies to the Chamber that are problematic.
 
Superfreak said:
Yes there is. You are pretending you understand what the 'majority of workers' would think.

The majority of Chamber members are small and mid sized businesses. THAT is who the chamber protects. They also encourage overseas trading, bringing foreign jobs into the US, encouraging growth of the world wide economy.... they fight against job killing bills or pieces of bills.

So the 'consequences' are that you can say anything you want about them and they should be forced to prove your allegations wrong? That is a great mentality. I think that should be the Dem platform of the future. Slander? Liable? Defamation? No more! You can now say what ever you want about anyone or any group. It is up to them to prove you are not lying.
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SF spare me the lectures on what local chambers are like. I'm a business owner, and a succesful one, and as much as I joke around on here and don't talk about it, and take a bunch of shit from a bunch of people who know jack shit about anything (for instance don't even get me started on tinfoil's ideas that businesses aren't hiring because they don't know what health care costs will be next year), I'll take the damned respect for that. I am very familar, too much so, with the local chambers. I've been to many chambers but I've never met Tom Donahue and I never will. And neither will any other true small business owner. We are all in on the "it's a small business" scam. I actually am one.

Let me give you one big example of the chamber working against not only the interests of working people, but against the opinion of a supermajority of americans - the minimum wage.

Now, if Dems start running ads on that, and they should, then this will only snowball.
 
Superfreak said:
Ah... back to another boogey man... when in doubt, just shout out Rove did it! rove did It!

Again.... way to stand up and show your true colors.
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More bullshit and you're dodging the issue about this just being hypocritical false outrage by Republicans. For every example of recent dirty political tricks Dems have done in the last 10 years I can give you half a dozen examples of the Republican slimeball attack machine doing the same and far worse and to top this off, anyone with any common sense knows that their is a high probablitly that the allegation of the Chamber of Commerce recieving foreign money for their political objectives is probably true. So spare me the false outrage. If the Chamber of Commerce is so concerned about this allegation they can always open up their books and prove Obama a liar. If not, then they should just STFU and spare us the false outrage.
 
I'll tell you one thing, I didn't believe it when I first heard the Dems were running this ad. I kept going, The DEms? The Dems are running it? The dems? Really? Not Moveon or some other organization, but the actual democrats?

I think a lot of the outrage is due to the fact that as Mott points out, it's R's who are supposed to play rough, or outright dirty. The dems are just supposed to take it, and whisper once in a while "well you know, sir, ma'm, that's not totally 100% true about us", and when an R starts screaming, they are to shut up immediately and later apologize for having had the temerity to speak up at all.

All of a sudden the dems took out a f'ing louisville slugger and cracked some heads and the right doesn't know whether to shit or wind their watches.
 
Darla said:
I'll tell you one thing, I didn't believe it when I first heard the Dems were running this ad. I kept going, The DEms? The Dems are running it? The dems? Really? Not Moveon or some other organization, but the actual democrats?

I think a lot of the outrage is due to the fact that as Mott points out, it's R's who are supposed to play rough, or outright dirty. The dems are just supposed to take it, and whisper once in a while "well you know, sir, ma'm, that's not totally 100% true about us", and when an R starts screaming, they are to shut up immediately and later apologize for having had the temerity to speak up at all.

All of a sudden the dems took out a f'ing louisville slugger and cracked some heads and the right doesn't know whether to shit or wind their watches.
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LOL I wouldn't go that far Darla but it's starting to look like the Dems are starting to grow a pair of balls. It's nice to see some testicular fortitude from them for a change. :)
 
Darla said:
SF spare me the lectures on what local chambers are like. I'm a business owner, and a succesful one, and as much as I joke around on here and don't talk about it, and take a bunch of shit from a bunch of people who know jack shit about anything (for instance don't even get me started on tinfoil's ideas that businesses aren't hiring because they don't know what health care costs will be next year), I'll take the damned respect for that. I am very familar, too much so, with the local chambers. I've been to many chambers but I've never met Tom Donahue and I never will. And neither will any other true small business owner. We are all in on the "it's a small business" scam. I actually am one.

Let me give you one big example of the chamber working against not only the interests of working people, but against the opinion of a supermajority of americans - the minimum wage.

Now, if Dems start running ads on that, and they should, then this will only snowball.
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Yes, you will never likely meet Tom just as union members will never likely meet their national leaders, just as most citizens wont ever meet the President or their Senators or their Congressmen.

As for minimum wage, there should not be a federal minimum wage. IF anything it should be set at the state level. As a small business owner, you should understand the cost impacts higher wages have on your business. Granted you live in New York and thus it isn't as high as it is on a small business in parts of the country with lower costs of living. But the impact is still there.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
More bullshit and you're dodging the issue about this just being hypocritical false outrage by Republicans. For every example of recent dirty political tricks Dems have done in the last 10 years I can give you half a dozen examples of the Republican slimeball attack machine doing the same and far worse and to top this off, anyone with any common sense knows that their is a high probablitly that the allegation of the Chamber of Commerce recieving foreign money for their political objectives is probably true. So spare me the false outrage. If the Chamber of Commerce is so concerned about this allegation they can always open up their books and prove Obama a liar. If not, then they should just STFU and spare us the false outrage.
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I am not dodging anything. It is a flat out LIE. They have NO EVIDENCE and they are simply shouting 'prove us wrong' to the Chamber. If this is how you want things to be, just say so. If you approve of such methods... stand up and be counted. Your tossing in what 'others have done' is nothing more than a feeble attempt to divert the conversation into a 'they did it too'.

I do not approve of such tactics... do you?

yeah... the CHAMBER should have to prove their innocence. Because that is what our nation is founded upon. Not innocent until proven guilty, but 'I will say anything I want about you and you have to prove me wrong'.

To pretend they should STFU about it is pathetic.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
More bullshit and you're dodging the issue about this just being hypocritical false outrage by Republicans. For every example of recent dirty political tricks Dems have done in the last 10 years I can give you half a dozen examples of the Republican slimeball attack machine doing the same and far worse and to top this off, anyone with any common sense knows that their is a high probablitly that the allegation of the Chamber of Commerce recieving foreign money for their political objectives is probably true. So spare me the false outrage. If the Chamber of Commerce is so concerned about this allegation they can always open up their books and prove Obama a liar. If not, then they should just STFU and spare us the false outrage.
Click to expand...

I am not dodging anything. It is a flat out LIE. They have NO EVIDENCE and they are simply shouting 'prove us wrong' to the Chamber. If this is how you want things to be, just say so. If you approve of such methods... stand up and be counted. Your tossing in what 'others have done' is nothing more than a feeble attempt to divert the conversation into a 'they did it too'.

I do not approve of such tactics... do you?

yeah... the CHAMBER should have to prove their innocence. Because that is what our nation is founded upon. Not innocent until proven guilty, but 'I will say anything I want about you and you have to prove me wrong'.

To state they should have to prove their innocence or STFU about it is pathetic.

MOTT SCREWED A chicken... and worse yet... a MICHIGAN chicken. Prove your innocence Mott.
 
Superfreak said:
Yes, you will never likely meet Tom just as union members will never likely meet their national leaders, just as most citizens wont ever meet the President or their Senators or their Congressmen.
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Well, to be fair, I'm not all that interested in meeting him. He's like the uber-white man to me. And so pasty. If I'm going to meet a supervillian, he should at least have some color. What kind of conversation are Harvey Milktoast and me going to have? Come on.
 
evince said:
Workers having the power to organize is what caused this busniness enviroment?

You are bat shit crazy super
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No desh... it is not the power to organize that created the problem. It is the corruption within the leadership of the unions that created this problem. The union leaders rape puppies.
 
Darla said:
Well, to be fair, I'm not all that interested in meeting him. He's like the uber-white man to me. And so pasty. If I'm going to meet a supervillian, he should at least have some color. What kind of conversation are Harvey Milktoast and me going to have? Come on.
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Next time you can just say.... I concede. Much quicker.
 
Superfreak said:
Next time you can just say.... I concede. Much quicker.
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Ha. No I'm not. I love the ad, I agree with what the Dems are saying on this, and I am loving watching the right have a bunch of sissy fits over it.

Unpc word, but blank it! It is columbus day after all. If we can celibrate a homicidal maniac, I can use the word sissy.
 
Superfreak said:
I am not dodging anything. It is a flat out LIE. They have NO EVIDENCE and they are simply shouting 'prove us wrong' to the Chamber. If this is how you want things to be, just say so. If you approve of such methods... stand up and be counted. Your tossing in what 'others have done' is nothing more than a feeble attempt to divert the conversation into a 'they did it too'.

I do not approve of such tactics... do you?

yeah... the CHAMBER should have to prove their innocence. Because that is what our nation is founded upon. Not innocent until proven guilty, but 'I will say anything I want about you and you have to prove me wrong'.

To state they should have to prove their innocence or STFU about it is pathetic.

MOTT SCREWED A chicken... and worse yet... a MICHIGAN chicken. Prove your innocence Mott.
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I don't have to prove it's not a lie cause I don't really give a shit and if truth be known I did screw that chicken from michigan!
 
Darla said:
Ha. No I'm not. I love the ad, I agree with what the Dems are saying on this, and I am loving watching the right have a bunch of sissy fits over it.

Unpc word, but blank it! It is columbus day after all. If we can celibrate a homicidal maniac, I can use the word sissy.
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i actually laughed out loud.
 
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