Democratic Debate

LV426 said:
Unlike you, I don't feel compelled to embellish my personal situation on a message board so people will take my points more seriously.

I let the work stand for itself.
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It's standing, all right. lol

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LV426 said:
Wow...so you see a 2.7% unemployment rate for Bachelor's grads and you're like, eh not impressed.
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Not impressed because it says nothing about the fields of employment. There are plenty of kids with bachelors degrees that are working in retail.
 
LV426 said:
You don't think it's important to learn the history behind your profession?

Wow.

You sure you're not a Republican? You oppose education and ignore history.
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I don't oppose education. I oppose 'free' education just for the sake of a degree that will ultimately be worthless in the job market. But you know that.

No. I don't think it's important to know who invented antibiotics in order to be a good nurse. Neither do you. In fact, in every case, those who tend to excel at test taking and fail at application of knowledge, you get a nurse who can tell you who invented antibiotics, but ends up being incompetent on the floor.

I don't care one iota about my nurse's GPA as much as I care about how many years she has been on the job.
 
Earl said:
I doubt that the history of antibiotics is taught in Pre-med or Meducal School...just how and when to administer them.
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Well, this discussion has meandered because it's hard to make the case that a bachelors degree should be mandatory across the board in society.

If you're trying to prove that a college education improves every aspect of society, you tend to dig deeply to find a link between your position and real world issues.

I offered an anecdote about a nurse with 20 years experience on the floor who was forced to waste thousands of dollars and countless years learning about nothing of value to her job.

It's very hard to defend our governor who forced hospitals to funnel money to the colleges.
 
LV426 said:
You don't know that at all. This is a bullshit, Republican response. Shame.




Well, you are not the arbiter of what is appropriate education for health care, and it sounds to me like your GF is really fucking lazy if she doesn't feel she needs to improve upon the training she has. New shit gets developed all the fucking time, and unless you were personally sitting in those classes with her, then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Period. Also, really shitty of you to speak for a woman while lending your subjective judgment to things of which you have no qualifications at all.

At. All.




Really? Where is that right enshrined in the Constitution? In order to own and run a business, you must receive a state charter. So basically, you need permission from the state in order to start a business. You can't just start one because you think you're entitled to it.




Most businesses fail, and they fail not because of the market or demand, but because of poor management. People who are not qualified, or educated, or experienced enough to start businesses, and they end up failing all the fucking time.

All the time.

Most businesses fail.

Very few actually succeed and proliferate.

The reason is because of poor management, not poor product, or the market, or consumer demand. Almost always, it's because of poor management.




It wasn't his business. It was his father's. It's like that with most all of these billionaires. They didn't build their businesses, they inherited them and ended up driving them into the ground because of poor management.




Horseshit.

Being a success has more to do with your race, your gender, and what class you were born into than "hard work" and this fantasy of the American Dream; where if you work hard, you get success. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Economic mobility in America is worse than every other modern, first world nation. That mobility becomes even more constrained when you put a hefty price tag on education.

Do you...do you think everyone competes on a level playing field in this country, or do you recognize that certain races, genders, and classes have systemic, inherent advantages in the system that might reward those who don't work as hard as others?




So in your view, engineers and architects are stupid?
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Interesting. I tend to enjoy your posts. You typically return and fight the good fight with facts and figures when you battle the trumpkins here.



Now that you've devolved into hysterics, I'll just agree to disagree. You're now accusing me of being a Republican because you're flat wrong on this issue?


This post will remain unread, along with any other you make in this discussion. How dare you make the accusations that you did above.
 
Althea said:
I don't oppose education. I oppose 'free' education just for the sake of a degree that will ultimately be worthless in the job market. But you know that.

No. I don't think it's important to know who invented antibiotics in order to be a good nurse. Neither do you. In fact, in every case, those who tend to excel at test taking and fail at application of knowledge, you get a nurse who can tell you who invented antibiotics, but ends up being incompetent on the floor.

I don't care one iota about my nurse's GPA as much as I care about how many years she has been on the job.
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so what you are saying is you don't understand the theory behind education

and yea LV426 has been reduced to insane, baseless posts on a daily basis, I don't think he realizes what Trump has done to his brain
 
Althea said:
Except for the fact that many graduates are not working in the career that they want. No guarantees, as it were.
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Right, but people switch careers all the time...so if you wanted to switch careers, shouldn't you have the ability to get education and training for that career without going into debt? That's another aspect to free college that isn't discussed; continuing education. People who got degrees 20-30 years ago, who might want to switch careers, get an advanced degree, etc. Why shouldn't they also have the option to attend a public school for free?

There's no economic argument against it, only emotional ones.
 
Althea said:
Nor will they ever raise wages. Of course we agree on this point, but it's not the discussion you and I are having right now. My point is that free college will do nothing to wrestle wages from greedy corporations.
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Maybe, but we know that the more educated you are, the likelier you are to find work, and the higher your earnings.

Not going to college doesn't set you on a path to higher earnings than those who did go to college, right?

So why not have college as a free option? Not everyone is going to take that option, and not everyone is going to have the grades to do it. But if you do have the grades, why shouldn't you go to public college for free?


For some. If, and only if you are lucky enough to be hired in a position that you wanted based on your education. Statistics do not support that.
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I don't know how you can look at the facts and see that Bachelor's grads make 30% more than Associates grads, have a lower unemployment rate (below the national average, BTW) and still think that you're not getting work as a college graduate.

I also don't know anyone who graduates college and expects to be hired at VP or CEO level.

As far as college goes, it's not just the education in your major, it's the intangible skills college provides like critical thinking and analytical skills. Brain development continues through age 25. Stopping that at age 18 is arresting development.


I offered it to illustrate the point about a degree, and job availability. No thoughts on that?
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All I have to say is I don't know who expects to get a VP or CEO level job in the industry you want, fresh out of college.
 
RB 60 said:
It's standing, all right.
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You haven't even bothered to address anything I've said.

All you've done is offer up unverifiable personal anecdotes in support of your bullshit belief system, in absence of a coherent argument.

Then you get all whiny and bitchy because I refuse to accept the obviously fake personal backstory you've given your message board character.
 
Althea said:
Not impressed because it says nothing about the fields of employment. There are plenty of kids with bachelors degrees that are working in retail.
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But they're working and eventually, they will not be working in retail much longer.

Who graduates and gets a full-time, salaried position in the industry they studied? No one I know. Everyone had to start off at the bottom; even doing temp work. The point is that when trying to find that work, it is much easier for someone with a college degree than someone without, right? Many employers won't even look at your resume if you don't have a college degree.

What industry are people without college degrees going into?
 
Althea said:
I don't oppose education. I oppose 'free' education just for the sake of a degree that will ultimately be worthless in the job market.
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But it's not worthless! That's the thing. Employers won't even look at your resume if you don't have a college degree. The unemployment rate for Bachelor's grads is below the national unemployment rate, and it's not even close.

And you're leaning on your subjective view of the worth of certain degree programs, but what you're ignoring is the fact that college degrees aren't about just the degrees...they're also about all the intangibles that go into getting a college degree, and how honing and developing those skills, as your brain develops at the same pace, makes you eminently more employable than someone without those intangibles.


No. I don't think it's important to know who invented antibiotics in order to be a good nurse.
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Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

This kind of laziness is not something I tolerate.

If you don't know about the thing you are doing, then you shouldn't be doing it. Period.

Laziness and complacency is never a good excuse.

I think you and I fundamentally disagree over the concept of the worth of education. For you, you don't seem to think it is very valuable. I'm not sure why you think that, even with all the data present that shows the more educated you are, the more likely you are to find work, and the higher your lifetime earnings, and the healthier you are.


In fact, in every case, those who tend to excel at test taking and fail at application of knowledge
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This is bullshit, and I'm not even sure how you can measure this. This sounds like your conventional wisdom being substituted for a coherent, articulate argument.


you get a nurse who can tell you who invented antibiotics, but ends up being incompetent on the floor.
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You're not a nurse, so you can't say this. Secondly, I don't understand why you think it's transactional; that you have to learn the history at the expense of the practice, and vice versa. Good students can do both. If your GF is incapable of that, then she shouldn't be a nurse. We rely on professionals to be professional, and that includes being knowledgeable about what you're doing. As I said before, you mocked the idea of studying the history of nursing during the civil war, BUT THE CIVIL WAR IS WHERE MOST OF OUR MODERN AMERICAN NURSING TECHNIQUES ORIGINATED. [

So if you don't know the history, how can you innovate new and better techniques?

I seriously shudder to think that a nurse wouldn't know about nursing.


I don't care one iota about my nurse's GPA as much as I care about how many years she has been on the job.
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Experience doesn't necessarily translate to better outcomes. Particularly if that experience is all shit. Would you hire a baseball manager who never had a winning season in 20+ years of experience in MLB? Would you hire a business manager who had 20+ years of experience, yet the experience was losing money? Would you hire a babysitter who had 20 years of experience, if the experience was losing children? Of course not. So why wouldn't you apply those same standards to your health? Makes no sense, dude.
 
Althea said:
I offered an anecdote about a nurse with 20 years experience on the floor who was forced to waste thousands of dollars and countless years learning about nothing of value to her job.
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Again, that is your subjective judgment being substituted for the standard. Which is what Republicans do.

Why is it important for nurses to get continuing education? Because new techniques are innovated all the time. And what you learned 20 years ago might no longer be relevant today. But you don't know that if you're ignorant of the history. So you end up with an entitled whiner who doesn't feel like she needs to grow.

As I said, complacency is never a good excuse for anything.
 
Althea said:
Now that you've devolved into hysterics, I'll just agree to disagree. You're now accusing me of being a Republican because you're flat wrong on this issue?
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You're substituting your subjective opinion for a coherent argument.

That is what Republicans do.

You can't make an economic case against free public colleges, so you instead make an emotional one about the subjective "worth" of a degree.

Then you argue that, instead of arguing the cold, sober economics of the policy.

I don't care about your feelings or your subjective opinion. All I care about is whether or not the economics of the policy make sense. And from what I've seen, no case has been made against the economics of it. The only case made against it has been purely emotional.

I didn't devolve this thread into hysterics, you did when you submitted an emotional, subjective opinion as the foundation of your position.

I don't care about your opinion. All I care about is whether or not the economics work. And the economics of free public college work.
 
Althea said:
This post will remain unread, along with any other you make in this discussion. How dare you make the accusations that you did above.
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There is no economic argument to make against free public colleges; the only argument to make is a subjective one, which is what you did.

I don't care about your subjective opinion.

I don't care about what you think is fair.

I don't care what you think personally about the value of a college degree.

The only thing I care about is whether or not the policy makes economic sense, and it does.
 
LV426 said:
Right, but people switch careers all the time...so if you wanted to switch careers, shouldn't you have the ability to get education and training for that career without going into debt? That's another aspect to free college that isn't discussed; continuing education. People who got degrees 20-30 years ago, who might want to switch careers, get an advanced degree, etc. Why shouldn't they also have the option to attend a public school for free?

There's no economic argument against it, only emotional ones.
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I've called this person out before on their republican beliefs. It's people like him who keep us from moving forward.

I call them "The Compromise Champion". They will compromise with racism and hate to keep their privilege.
 
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