Debt As A Weapon

[PoliTalker]

I was listening to Podcast #104 on Ben Franklin's World. Awesome website, btw. There is a new episode every week! They are all about early American history. Fascinating...

This episode was about the original interface between Europeans and Native Americans along the salt water coasts of New England.

I never knew the Native Americans had large sailing canoes capable of carrying 40 people! The invaders made quick work of them with cannons before driving the Natives from the coast. But a lot of trading also happened, each side learning what the other was interested in. The Europeans wanted furs, fish and lumber. The Native Americans wanted beads, knives, mirrors.

I was very surprised to learn that a sort of debt system emerged. "I'll give you this if you do that for me when you get the chance."

Whaling emerged because everyone saw the benefit of oil. The knowledge of whales was known to the Native Americans. The Europeans learned how to exploit it for profit. The Native Americans would use every part of whales that beached, but never set to sea to hunt them until the English and Dutch brought advanced seafaring technology. Together, whaling was invented. Early 17th Century whaling ships had crews of largely Native Americans.

Got me to thinking about debt. Debt is used as a weapon to force others to do things which benefit the loaner. Either do work directly for the loaner, or in order to earn profits to be paid back.

That system is still in place, except now the biggest egregious example is the super-rich who finance everything for everyone else, to their benefit. It makes them richer, giving them even more power over others.

The entire middle to lower middle class of America is pretty much in debt to the rich. This forces them to work like dogs, forgo family life, remain committed to earning and production.

Debt is really a soft form of slavery. Maybe that's why Muslims hate it.

The main weapon in the American Class War is debt.

Lately, in the pandemic, people are asking: "What is freedom?"

What does freedom mean? Freedom to make up your own pandemic response?

Well, this podcast made me realize what freedom really is.

Freedom is freedom from debt.

Being in debt is like an ankle iron with a big Iron Ball. Or perhaps like an ankle monitor, these days.

The super-rich have freedom. (mostly) Some of them are over-extended, and do not know freedom. (The king of debt?)

And many in the middle actually have freedom. People who get all their stuff paid off. House, cars, possessions, everything. That's freedom.

And even some homeless people have freedom! (not that their form of it is very desirable.)

I hope you find your own form of freedom.

 

[PoliTalker]

Is debt a weapon or a tool?

 

[PoliTalker]

Sorry about creating a thread which requires deeper contemplation...

(and does not involve hatred or anger)

 

[Concart]

Is debt a weapon or a tool?

Government debt is a tool. Personal debt is a weapon. Debt is the single reason that the wage/wealth gap got so large without anyone paying attention. In the 1980's credit flowed like water and regulations on lenders disappeared. This was the perfect opportunity for the wealthy to get huge tax breaks while working class stiffs bought everything in site and built up huge credit card debt. Rome had bread and circuses. We had chicken wings and football. When the credit cards were maxed out, the rich said 'hey, no worries, just pay us back by borrowing against your home'. By doing so they pushed the day of reckoning further into the future. In 2008, the entire house of cards collapsed, but by that time, the rich had created such an enormous wealth gap that they hardly felt the impact.

Republicans cheered on this entire process. It has crippled the country.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Concart,

Government debt is a tool. Personal debt is a weapon. Debt is the single reason that the wage/wealth gap got so large without anyone paying attention. In the 1980's credit flowed like water and regulations on lenders disappeared. This was the perfect opportunity for the wealthy to get huge tax breaks while working class stiffs bought everything in site and built up huge credit card debt. Rome had bread and circuses. We had chicken wings and football. When the credit cards were maxed out, the rich said 'hey, no worries, just pay us back by borrowing against your home'. By doing so they pushed the day of reckoning further into the future. In 2008, the entire house of cards collapsed, but by that time, the rich had created such an enormous wealth gap that they hardly felt the impact.

Republicans cheered on this entire process. It has crippled the country.

I totally agree. It is no coincidence that when credit became far more widely available, home ownership soon fell.

Now, we have corporations owned by the super-rich running around snapping up individual homes and turning them into rentals. There is lots of construction in two forms. Expensive homes for those who can afford it, and apartments for those who are under the thumb of oppressive debt.

The real trick in America is to avoid becoming over-extended.

Anyone who can do that gains control over their own life with the ability to make their own decisions.

Those who are over-extended have to do what other people say. There is a lot of resistance to authority in America. Frustrated people who don't like their job but have to work it to service their debt express their rage by lashing out at government, immigrants and liberals.

That's no surprise, because if they are working their butts off, they have no time to become well informed. They think if they turn on Tucker Carlson that will give them everything in a nutshell. What he gives them instead is mind-bombs that blow up and cause them to blame the wrong people.

Isn't it strange how a middle class white guy, resenting that he doesn't feel like the king of his own castle like his father or grandfather, and has to work with women, sometimes even for them, and has to treat blacks fairly on the job, is shackled to his drudgery work by debt, and then blames powerless immigrants for his plight, when all his problems are really cause by the oppression of the powerful super-rich and the class war.

Does he rally think powerless immigrants caused his problems?

How can he overlook those who really have the power?

Makes no sense.

 

[Concart]

Hello Concart,



I totally agree. It is no coincidence that when credit became far more widely available, home ownership soon fell.

Now, we have corporations owned by the super-rich running around snapping up individual homes and turning them into rentals. There is lots of construction in two forms. Expensive homes for those who can afford it, and apartments for those who are under the thumb of oppressive debt.

The real trick in America is to avoid becoming over-extended.

Anyone who can do that gains control over their own life with the ability to make their own decisions.

Those who are over-extended have to do what other people say. There is a lot of resistance to authority in America. Frustrated people who don't like their job but have to work it to service their debt express their rage by lashing out at government, immigrants and liberals.

That's no surprise, because if they are working their butts off, they have no time to become well informed. They think if they turn on Tucker Carlson that will give them everything in a nutshell. What he gives them instead is mind-bombs that blow up and cause them to blame the wrong people.

Isn't it strange how a middle class white guy, resenting that he doesn't feel like the king of his own castle like his father or grandfather, and has to work with women, sometimes even for them, and has to treat blacks fairly on the job, is shackled to his drudgery work by debt, and then blames powerless immigrants for his plight, when all his problems are really cause by the oppression of the powerful super-rich and the class war.

Does he rally think powerless immigrants caused his problems?

How can he overlook those who really have the power?

Makes no sense.

It does make sense when you listen to the right wing narrative. 'Just vote us in, and we will remove the impediments and make you rich like us!!!! And by impediments, I mean the brown people who are sucking up all your money, and the immigrants who are stealing your jobs and spreading the virus, along with smallpox and a host of other diseases. Vote us in. Specifically, vote for Trump'.

They believe it. They have been voting against their self interest for years, because they are willfully ignorant.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Concart,

It does make sense when you listen to the right wing narrative. 'Just vote us in, and we will remove the impediments and make you rich like us!!!! And by impediments, I mean the brown people who are sucking up all your money, and the immigrants who are stealing your jobs and spreading the virus, along with smallpox and a host of other diseases. Vote us in. Specifically, vote for Trump'.

They believe it. They have been voting against their self interest for years, because they are willfully ignorant.

Totally agree. And the ironic thing is that this person blames the poor for 'making bad decisions,' but then lives this life of lack of freedom because of his own poor decision making resulting in bondage to debt.

Man. Summa the trucks running around with Trump flags? Have you seen the prices on those things? $70-$80K and more. What a lot of payments. And the boats? You know what a boat is. That's a hole in the water into which money is poured. It would be so tempting to take a second mortgage on the home to get a nice boat. Gotta wonder how many of those boats with the Trump flags were paid for...

It is also logical that someone who feels like he has no freedom because of oppressive personal debt, would take the opportunity to stand up for his 'freedom' wherever he can by resisting pandemic mandates.

From the mindset of feeling no freedom in other areas, it would only be natural to seek freedom in whatever area seems available.

 

[cawacko]

It does make sense when you listen to the right wing narrative. 'Just vote us in, and we will remove the impediments and make you rich like us!!!! And by impediments, I mean the brown people who are sucking up all your money, and the immigrants who are stealing your jobs and spreading the virus, along with smallpox and a host of other diseases. Vote us in. Specifically, vote for Trump'.

They believe it. They have been voting against their self interest for years, because they are willfully ignorant.

Your definition of self interest is that it's in your interest for the gov't to raise taxes and have them redistribute it to you in the form of various gov't programs. Not everyone buys that or believes in that and it doesn't make them willfully ignorant.

 

[Concart]

Your definition of self interest is that it's in your interest for the gov't to raise taxes and have them redistribute it to you in the form of various gov't programs. Not everyone buys that or believes in that and it doesn't make them willfully ignorant.

You are completely wrong. I retired with 10 million in the bank. That cheap shot is beneath you. You're better than that. Very disappointed you decided to take the low road ad hom attack instead of addressing the issue. Do better.

 

[cawacko]

You are completely wrong. I retired with 10 million in the bank. That cheap shot is beneath you. You're better than that. Very disappointed you decided to take the low road ad hom attack instead of addressing the issue. Do better.

Ok, replace "you" with "liberals" or "progressives". My comment had nothing to do with you personally. Congrats on having $10m but my comment had nothing to do with your net worth. I was addressing the issue. Drawing a blank on the author's name but it was the argument of "What's The Matter With Kansas" and the claim, just as you made, is anyone who votes Republican is voting against their best interest. The basis of that argument is it's in your best interest for the gov't to tax the rich and redistribute it back to you in the form of gov't programs.

I'm not sure why you think it's an ad hom attack to state that. That is the position of those of who think people who vote Republican are voting against their best interest. I don't know what else to tell you. Sorry if you're having a bad day.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

Your definition of self interest is that it's in your interest for the gov't to raise taxes and have them redistribute it to you in the form of various gov't programs. Not everyone buys that or believes in that and it doesn't make them willfully ignorant.

Not everyone buys the line of BS that raising the debt ceiling will allow more borrowing to drive the debt up.

1. The debt was driven up by the tax break for the rich failing to generate enough revenue, and the pandemic.

2. Failure to raise the debt ceiling will default on current obligations, causing devastation to the economy and American credit.

3. The build Back Better bill is fully financed not be adding more taxes to the middle or even upper middle, but by taxing the super-rich more, those earning OVER $400K per year.

4. What has not been mentioned is that Build Back Better will generate an economic boom, jobs and revenue.

 

[cawacko]

Not everyone buys the line of BS that raising the debt ceiling will allow more borrowing to drive the debt up.

1. The debt was driven up by the tax break for the rich failing to generate enough revenue, and the pandemic.

2. Failure to raise the debt ceiling will default on current obligations, causing devastation to the economy and American credit.

3. The build Back Better bill is fully financed not be adding more taxes to the middle or even upper middle, but by taxing the super-rich more, those earning OVER $400K per year.

4. What has not been mentioned is that Build Back Better will generate an economic boom, jobs and revenue.

Based on this response, you aren't following the point of what I was responding to.

 

[Concart]

Ok, replace "you" with "liberals" or "progressives". My comment had nothing to do with you personally. Congrats on having $10m but my comment had nothing to do with your net worth. I was addressing the issue. Drawing a blank on the author's name but it was the argument of "What's The Matter With Kansas" and the claim, just as you made, is anyone who votes Republican is voting against their best interest. The basis of that argument is it's in your best interest for the gov't to tax the rich and redistribute it back to you in the form of gov't programs.

I'm not sure why you think it's an ad hom attack to state that. That is the position of those of who think people who vote Republican are voting against their best interest. I don't know what else to tell you. Sorry if you're having a bad day.

My argument is 100% macroeconomic. The economy is struggling because rich people have all the money and they don’t spend it. Less wealthy people do and that stimulates growth. A widening wage/wealth gap is unsustainable but that is the Republican agenda. It’s that simple.

 

[cawacko]

My argument is 100% macroeconomic. The economy is struggling because rich people have all the money and they don’t spend it. Less wealthy people do and that stimulates growth. A widening wage/wealth gap is unsustainable but that is the Republican agenda. It’s that simple.

Having lived in California for as long as I have and seeing the massive inequality that we have here I don't easily buy the argument that the Democratic agenda reduces that gap.

This idea that we should distribute more money because poorer people spend more, how that does that help them increase their net worth in any way? Yes, they can have a nicer car or better electronic gadgets but if saving is frowned upon because it holds down growth how does that do anything to reduce inequality?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

Based on this response, you aren't following the point of what I was responding to.

The same could be said of your comment.

But really, it is obvious why you have chosen to avoid responding directly to what I said. That is because there is no rational defense of what Republicans are doing by playing with the federal debt limit as if it was a political tool.

Republicans are using the federal debt as a partisan weapon.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

Having lived in California for as long as I have and seeing the massive inequality that we have here I don't easily buy the argument that the Democratic agenda reduces that gap.

This idea that we should distribute more money because poorer people spend more, how that does that help them increase their net worth in any way? Yes, they can have a nicer car or better electronic gadgets but if saving is frowned upon because it holds down growth how does that do anything to reduce inequality?

The secret to wealth is home ownership. By helping the poor with child care for instance, it allows them to work and earn, build credit, qualify for a mortgage.

Vote for Build Back Better and that is what we will do.

Voting for Republicans only increases wealth inequality, stifles the economy.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



The secret to wealth is home ownership. By helping the poor with child care for instance, it allows them to work and earn, build credit, qualify for a mortgage.

Vote for Build Back Better and that is what we will do.

Voting for Republicans only increases wealth inequality, stifles the economy.

I’m going to make this partisan, but it’s also true, if home ownership is the key to wealth why do I want to vote for people for whom NIMBYism is practically a religion?

If I vote against my own interests by voting Republican, how does it benefit me to vote for people who prevent new supply and thus work to increase values for already well to do homeowners making it more difficult for me to have the opportunity to purchase?

 

[evince]

Is debt a weapon or a tool?

It’s a tool

With a hammer your can build or kill someone


It’s not the tools fault

It’s the intention


Evil does evil things with all it contacts


So we have rules on how to use things


And prisons for those who fail to comply to those rules


Proper fettering Of all markets and strong and timely Enforcement of those rules

 

[evince]

I’m going to make this partisan, but it’s also true, if home ownership is the key to wealth why do I want to vote for people for whom NIMBYism is practically a religion?

If I vote against my own interests by voting Republican, how does it benefit me to vote for people who prevent new supply and thus work to increase values for already well to do homeowners making it more difficult for me to have the opportunity to purchase?

This makes NO sense wack

 

[evince]

Government debt is a tool. Personal debt is a weapon. Debt is the single reason that the wage/wealth gap got so large without anyone paying attention. In the 1980's credit flowed like water and regulations on lenders disappeared. This was the perfect opportunity for the wealthy to get huge tax breaks while working class stiffs bought everything in site and built up huge credit card debt. Rome had bread and circuses. We had chicken wings and football. When the credit cards were maxed out, the rich said 'hey, no worries, just pay us back by borrowing against your home'. By doing so they pushed the day of reckoning further into the future. In 2008, the entire house of cards collapsed, but by that time, the rich had created such an enormous wealth gap that they hardly felt the impact.

Republicans cheered on this entire process. It has crippled the country.

And a buying opportunity for those rich enough to weather it



The wealthy LOVE a boom and bust cycle


It’s why they keep helping create it