Crazy Trump's tariffs are backfiring on the U.S.

[gfm7175]

Bernie Sanders has said for years that the U.S. is getting ripped off in trade. Does he not understand economics in your view?

This is one of the very few things that Bernie Sanders is ABSOLUTELY correct about (that the USA is getting ripped off in trade).

Where he gets it wrong is in precisely how he wants to go about fixing that problem.

 

[Cypress]

^^^
**Democrat blows up a balloon and keeps blowing it up until it is about to pop**
** Democrat steps aside, Republican enters**
**Balloon finishes blowing up and then pops**
Democrat: "THAT DAMN REPUBLICAN POPPED THE BALLOON!!!!!!!!"

There's too much data to casually try to tap dance around.

Three recessions during the last three consecutive Republican administrations, and four if Trump 2.0 causes another one.

Zero recessions in the 20 years the last three consecutive Democratic presidents held office.

 

[Trumpet]

AMEN!

When he posts that image...it means he has no reasonable response.

Exactly

 

[BartenderElite]

Bernie Sanders has said for years that the U.S. is getting ripped off in trade. Does he not understand economics in your view?

I'll repost something for context. This is a thread from 2008 started by uscitizen that said U.S. - China trade cost over 2 million American jobs. Cypress wrote this in 2008 (and yes, I am openly pro free trade):

You think this was an accident, or somehow all unintentional?

This was exactly what the wall street republicans, and corporate-sponsored Dems had in mind when the passed NAFTA, WTO, and China MFN.

A downward pressure on labor costs and wages in the United States.

People like Cawacko, Damocles, and Stuperfreak actually bought into the nonsense that William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Alan Greenspan were actually valiantly trying to improve the status, power, and wage potential of america's working middle class. Is it possible to be any more foolish that to believe scions of the conservative movement and america's rich investor were invested in improving the power and status of Joe and Jane working class american?

Does this type of rhetoric, rejecting our trade deals, show he also doesn't understand economics in your opinion?

You're not presenting any factual information w/ this. And yes - I would say Bernie doesn't understand economics either.

We have not been getting "ripped off" for years and years. We have benefitted greatly from global trade. It's a fabricated problem, and we're now in a trade war that no one asked for.

 

[archives]

This is simply not true... it has never shown up in any hard data from Trump's first term OR this term. What actually happens is businesses absorb most/all of the cost (it very largely DOESN'T get passed onto the consumer). Businesses will gladly take a small hit in profits instead of retail-pricing their consumers out of their market and thus taking an even larger hit in profits.

Again, both industrial revolutions during the 1800s occurred when the USA was tariffing the ever loving SHIT out of other countries (to protect their own growing industries and to keep money in the pockets of their own citizens instead of taxing the ever loving SHIT out of them). History seems pretty clear to me.

Heard this arguement before, “it very largely doesn’t get passed on,” which is a big assumption especially with small businesses

And America’s economy in the 1800’s, in fact the world’s economy at that time, is no way comparable to today

 

[Trumpet]

Bernie Sanders has said for years that the U.S. is getting ripped off in trade. Does he not understand economics in your view?

I'll repost something for context. This is a thread from 2008 started by uscitizen that said U.S. - China trade cost over 2 million American jobs. Cypress wrote this in 2008 (and yes, I am openly pro free trade):

You think this was an accident, or somehow all unintentional?

This was exactly what the wall street republicans, and corporate-sponsored Dems had in mind when the passed NAFTA, WTO, and China MFN.

A downward pressure on labor costs and wages in the United States.

People like Cawacko, Damocles, and Stuperfreak actually bought into the nonsense that William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Alan Greenspan were actually valiantly trying to improve the status, power, and wage potential of america's working middle class. Is it possible to be any more foolish that to believe scions of the conservative movement and america's rich investor were invested in improving the power and status of Joe and Jane working class american?

Does this type of rhetoric, rejecting our trade deals, show he also doesn't understand economics in your opinion?

Nice try at whitewashing Crazy Trump's bungling.

 

[cawacko]

This is simply not true... it has never shown up in any hard data from Trump's first term OR this term. What actually happens is businesses absorb most/all of the cost (it very largely DOESN'T get passed onto the consumer). Businesses will gladly take a small hit in profits instead of retail-pricing their consumers out of their market and thus taking an even larger hit in profits.

Again, both industrial revolutions during the 1800s occurred when the USA was tariffing the ever loving SHIT out of other countries (to protect their own growing industries and to keep money in the pockets of their own citizens instead of taxing the ever loving SHIT out of them). History seems pretty clear to me.

You're trying to say this is a liberal's wet dream. The gov't can tax the sh*t out businesses and they just quietly eat it, while costs don't increase and jobs and growth aren't affected. If that's the case, why haven't we done this forever then?

 

[QP!]

I in no way support what Trump is doing on trade. That said, it wouldn't be 'easy' to push this through Congress. There are still free trade Republicans in Congress.

Presidents from both parties have used executive authority on trade. You’re right that any EO can be undone by the next President, but that hasn’t stopped Presidents from using them. (And in this case Biden basically left all Trump's tariffs in place, so that can happen)

Trump has shown he can EASILY over come almost any opposition to a position he really pushes hard on, especially if it was part of what he ran on in the campaign, and tariffs were.

We have seen time and again the 'principled republicans' say they will vote against certain things Trump is pushing and when he does not back down, they end up voting for it.

But regardless the issue is, no CEO, or Board or investors, are going to commit massive amounts of Capital now to build facilities to re-shore jobs at the much higher labor rates they would have to pay in America if they are not sure if the next POTUS (D or R) might just undue it with a new EO.

In fact you can bet the top candidates from each party will get massive campaign donations from corporations if they campaign on undoing it, so the corporations can get back to their cheap labor and big profits.

So the point is Trump tariff plan is doomed to failure, even if well intended (it is not) but because Trump is so painfully dumb he cannot see the road block (new EO) that will stop what he wants done and his magat supporters are so poorly educated that they think this is a win, when it is not.

It is an economy stall and that is it.

It will trigger inflation while lowering employment potentially sending the US into a Japan like multi decade period of stagflation where the entire country and citizens over all just get poorer.

 

[Trumpet]

So there's multiple liars on this very subject? ..... splendid...

 

[gfm7175]

Agreed it won't help Middle-Class and lower income Americans.

Yes it will. It (if extended to its logical conclusion) means less tax burden for those Americans (as well as more better-paying jobs).

Tariffs are protectionist and often used by emerging nations to encourage organic industries.

Historically speaking, correct... but they don't necessarily have to be.

The US isn't an emerging economy; it's a global economic superpower.

The USA has lost A LOT of manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world (China is a prime example) and has thus become increasingly dependent on those countries. That's NOT a good thing. The USA needs to get those jobs back ASAP. Tariffs are a vital part of getting those jobs back.

Tariffs help the rich, but don't do shit for everyday Americans.

How so? I already refuted this above.

 

[Ross Dolan]

One of the interesting things about being on a board like this for so long is seeing how things change over the years. In 2008 uscitizen (old school heads will remember him), a liberal leaning guy, started a thread about U.S. - China trade and how it supposedly cost over 2 million U.S. jobs.

In that thread someone wrote this:

You think this was an accident, or somehow all unintentional?

This was exactly what the wall street republicans, and corporate-sponsored Dems had in mind when the passed NAFTA, WTO, and China MFN.

A downward pressure on labor costs and wages in the United States.

People like Cawacko, Damocles, and Stuperfreak actually bought into the nonsense that William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Alan Greenspan were actually valiantly trying to improve the status, power, and wage potential of america's working middle class. Is it possible to be any more foolish that to believe scions of the conservative movement and america's rich investor were invested in improving the power and status of Joe and Jane working class american?
So then we get Trump, and people like Bernie, claiming these trade deals are screwing Americans and they ride that populist wave. And now these same folks complaining about free trade are complaining about tariffs and going after China etc. (except for when Biden does it).

Here is my question, and maybe I am missing something. For those on the left who complain about tariffs now, why the silence during the Biden years when he left them in place?

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or stupid, CW.

No one is saying there is anything wrong with tariffs. But there IS something wrong with the way the moron, Trump, uses them.

There is nothing wrong with a knife. I just used one to cut a loaf of bread to use in conjunction with a tomato salad I am eating for lunch. But if I used it to stab someone cutting across my lawn...IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD.

Trump is doing the equivalence of using a chain saw to perform a circumcision. I hope that answers your question.

 

[QP!]

...

Tariffs are a tax on importers.
...

...that are passed on to the buyer.

Magats who are poorly educated need to understand that.

Tariffs are simply a COST the seller must incorporate in to their selling price.

They are not a magic cost. Sellers do not look at these type costs differently when setting a selling price.

A seller adds up Cost A + Cost B + Cost C, etc to determine 'total cost to bring a product to market' and then they calculate their target Margin and ROI for when they sell that product.

The seller does not say 'oh Cost A increase is because the union manufacturing the item got a raise' so i am ok raising my selling prices to maintain my margins but since Cost B increase is from tariffs i will not pass it on and eat and just live with lower margins.,

As we saw in the pandemic sellers will always eventually pass on those increased costs even if they do not want to be first in their sector to do so.

 

[cawacko]

You're not presenting any factual information w/ this. And yes - I would say Bernie doesn't understand economics either.

We have not been getting "ripped off" for years and years. We have benefitted greatly from global trade. It's a fabricated problem, and we're now in a trade war that no one asked for.

Since tone can be hard to read here, I want to be clear I am not yelling at or attacking you.. I'm saying this conversationally.

Yesterday you said you don’t like any of the economic systems because they aren’t sustainable or fair. So it’s interesting to see you come out so strongly for free trade.

I’ve always considered myself pro free trade, and even I’ll acknowledge that while it raises the standard of living for the country overall (which is why we need it), some people and places get left behind. You don’t seem to acknowledge that part.

 

[cawacko]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or stupid, CW.

No one is saying there is anything wrong with tariffs. But there IS something wrong with the way the moron, Trump, uses them.

There is nothing wrong with a knife. I just used one to cut a loaf of bread to use in conjunction with a tomato salad I am eating for lunch. But if I used it to stab someone cutting across my lawn...IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD.

Trump is doing the equivalence of using a chain saw to perform a circumcision. I hope that answers your question.

In your opinion, why do you think Biden basically left them all in place during his term?

 

[BartenderElite]

Since tone can be hard to read here, I want to be clear I am not yelling at or attacking you.. I'm saying this conversationally.

Yesterday you said you don’t like any of the economic systems because they aren’t sustainable or fair. So it’s interesting to see you come out so strongly for free trade.

I’ve always considered myself pro free trade, and even I’ll acknowledge that while it raises the standard of living for the country overall (which is why we need it), some people and places get left behind. You don’t seem to acknowledge that part.

I didn't take it as anything but conversational, but thanks for clarifying anyway.

And to clarify - I don't think I said I didn't "like" capitalism. But, I do not think it is sustainable, at least as it is currently practiced. And as long as we're practicing capitalism, I do support free trade.

Like everything, it isn't perfect, and doesn't benefit everyone. But that's kind of a separate point & argument from the idea that we have not been getting "ripped off." That's pure Trumpism, imo. I don't think it's TDS to point out that he is paranoid in this regard and it reflects a general mindset that he has had throughout his career, as President and as a businessman.

 

[QP!]

^^^
**Democrat blows up a balloon and keeps blowing it up until it is about to pop**
** Democrat steps aside, Republican enters**
**Balloon finishes blowing up and then pops**
Democrat: "THAT DAMN REPUBLICAN POPPED THE BALLOON!!!!!!!!"

the problem you have is that your narrative is a fiction.

There was no 'balloon' talk at the end of Clinton, or Obama, or Bidens terms and the talk amongst a consensus of economists was the US economy being the 'envy of the world' at the end of each of their terms. In a solid good point with clear upward trajectories for the Republicans to then ride and the only thing they needed to do was not screw it up.

Trump road the Obama economy until covid hit, by managing to not screw it up but he DID NOTHING to make it his own or improve it.

Bringing the Data: Debunking the Trump Economy​

The envy of the world​

Special reports - Oct 19th 2024 - The Economist
The American economy has left other rich countries in the dust. Expect that to continue,...

 

[Ross Dolan]

In your opinion, why do you think Biden basically left them all in place during his term?

Biden did not leave ALL of the first term Trump tariffs in place.

Several of the ones on European nations were cut back...re-negotiated. Some of them with China were left in place...and a few were even expanded by Biden.

I suspect Biden left the ones in place he thought were appropriate...and took steps to reassess those he thought were not.

 

[cawacko]

Trump has shown he can EASILY over come almost any opposition to a position he really pushes hard on, especially if it was part of what he ran on in the campaign, and tariffs were.

We have seen time and again the 'principled republicans' say they will vote against certain things Trump is pushing and when he does not back down, they end up voting for it.

But regardless the issue is, no CEO, or Board or investors, are going to commit massive amounts of Capital now to build facilities to re-shore jobs at the much higher labor rates they would have to pay in America if they are not sure if the next POTUS (D or R) might just undue it with a new EO.

In fact you can bet the top candidates from each party will get massive campaign donations from corporations if they campaign on undoing it, so the corporations can get back to their cheap labor and big profits.

So the point is Trump tariff plan is doomed to failure, even if well intended (it is not) but because Trump is so painfully dumb he cannot see the road block (new EO) that will stop what he wants done and his magat supporters are so poorly educated that they think this is a win, when it is not.

It is an economy stall and that is it.

It will trigger inflation while lowering employment potentially sending the US into a Japan like multi decade period of stagflation where the entire country and citizens over all just get poorer.

I can respond to other comments but I still go back to, why did Biden leave the tariffs in place? It's bad policy and it was easy to overturn with another E.O. But he didn't.

 

[cawacko]

I didn't take it as anything but conversational, but thanks for clarifying anyway.

And to clarify - I don't think I said I didn't "like" capitalism. But, I do not think it is sustainable, at least as it is currently practiced. And as long as we're practicing capitalism, I do support free trade.

Like everything, it isn't perfect, and doesn't benefit everyone. But that's kind of a separate point & argument from the idea that we have not been getting "ripped off." That's pure Trumpism, imo. I don't think it's TDS to point out that he is paranoid in this regard and it reflects a general mindset that he has had throughout his career, as President and as a businessman.

Except it's not just Trump. It's why I posted the thread from 2008 with liberals on here complaining about free trade. And Bernie's whole message, and a big part of his appeal, is saying free trade rips off American workers.

It's like there is a mental block on this board that makes it so difficult to have a discussion that isn't only about Trump. There had been pushback against free trade brewing in this country for years. Trump and Bernie tapped into it.

 

[cawacko]

Biden did not leave ALL of the first term Trump tariffs in place.

Several of the ones on European nations were cut back...re-negotiated. Some of them with China were left in place...and a few were even expanded by Biden.

I suspect Biden left the ones in place he thought were appropriate...and took steps to reassess those he thought were not.

He left most of the big ones, especially on China, in place. So essentially you're saying most of Trump's tariffs were "appropriate"?