Congress should immediately debate and vote AUMF on Ukraine

anatta

100% recycled karma
New York Times claimed this week that the United States is providing real-time battlefield intelligence to Ukraine that has enabled the Ukrainians to target and kill approximately a dozen Russian generals, and helped locate and strike the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet last month.

Described as a “classified effort,” the U.S. provision of targeting intelligence to Ukraine “also includes anticipated Russian troop movements gleaned from recent American assessments of Moscow’s secret battle plan for the fighting in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine,” according to the Times.

The Times’ reporting relies on anonymous “senior American officials,” but if true it represents a sharp and unprecedented escalation of U.S. involvement in the Russo-Ukrainian war, such that Congress should immediately debate and vote on whether to authorize the use of military force in Ukraine.

Indeed, providing real-time targeting intelligence brings the United States right up to the line of belligerence, and arguably over it. The Biden administration seems to understand this. According to the Times, the administration “has sought to keep much of the battlefield intelligence secret, out of fear it will be seen as an escalation and provoke President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia into a wider war.”

The White House is right to fear this outcome, because it’s entirely possible that Putin will absolutely consider this level of battlefield participation by the United States tantamount to an act of war. That’s no doubt why the Biden administration snapped into damage control mode after the Times story about targeting intelligence published on Wednesday.

Adrienne Watson, a National Security Council spokeswoman, criticized the Times’ headline and said in a statement that battlefield intelligence was not provided to the Ukrainians “with the intent to kill Russian generals.” Asked about the Times report on Thursday, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby echoed Watson: “We do not provide intelligence on the location of senior military leaders on the battlefield or participate in the targeting decisions of the Ukrainian military.”

Then on Thursday evening, a second Times story dropped, again sourced to anonymous senior administration officials, detailing how U.S. intelligence helped Ukraine confirm the location of the Russian flagship Moskva, which on April 13 was hit by Ukrainian forces on the ground with two Neptune missiles and eventually sank. The Moskva is the largest warship sunk since World War Two, and a significant loss for the Russian Navy. Some U.S. officials cited by the Times said the American intelligence was “crucial” to the sinking of the Moskva.

The news coincides with reports earlier this week that Russia’s highest-ranking general and chief of the general staff, Valery Gerasimov, was wounded while visiting the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. (According to the Times, the strike that wounded Gerasimov was conducted without the aid of U.S. intelligence.)

n addition to intelligence sharing, the United States is now providing Ukraine with new and better weapons, including heavy artillery, state-of-the-art tactical drones, and armored vehicles. And that’s just for starters. Last week President Biden asked Congress to authorize $33 billion in weapons funding for Ukraine, on top of the billions we’ve already provided. If the past few months are any indication, as the war drags on we will furnish Ukraine with increasingly advanced (and expensive) weaponry and weapons systems.

It’s time to have a debate about all this in Congress, so the representatives of the American people can at least have a say in the matter before we stumble into war with Russia over Ukraine.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/05/0...ttlefield-intel-congress-needs-to-vote-on-it/
 
Because the news we might be giving Ukraine real-time Russian targets on the battlefield isn’t some trifling or technical thing. It’s a major development — and potentially a major step toward war. It’s true that the United States has been sharing intelligence with Ukraine since before Russia’s invasion on February 24, and indeed was sharing intelligence with allies in the runup to the invasion, but nothing close to what is described by the Times.

To understand the degree of U.S. escalation the Times report would suggest, a little background is in order. In early March, there appeared to be some confusion among Democrats on the question of intelligence sharing. Rep. Adam Smith, D-Washington, chair of the House Armed Services Committee, told MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” that the United States was “providing some intelligence” but not “real-time targeting.”

Asked about this later, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki implied that Smith was wrong, saying the United States was providing the Ukrainians “timely intelligence” that “includes information that should help them inform and develop their military response to Russia’s invasion.” When Politico’s NatSec Daily tweeted this, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida, the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, replied on Twitter that Psaki’s answer was “truthy,” but that “it does not capture the full reality.”

What did Rubio mean? The most likely scenario is that the United States was providing battlefield intelligence to the Ukrainians with built-in latency, a delay of 20 or 30 minutes —
enough to plausibly deny that we were actively helping Ukraine target Russian troops and thus avoid getting drawn into the war.

But if the Times report is accurate, we’ve gotten rid of that latency, with huge implications for the U.S. role in the conflict. The Times report goes on to say that “U.S. intelligence support to the Ukrainians has had a decisive effect on the battlefield, confirming targets identified by the Ukrainian military and pointing it to new targets. The flow of actionable intelligence on the movement of Russian troops that America has given Ukraine has few precedents.”

A level of intelligence-sharing that has few precedents might well have huge consequences.
As a thought experiment, imagine that during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 we discovered that Moscow was relaying real-time battlefield intelligence about U.S. troop movements to Saddam Hussein’s Republican Guard, and that as a result of this intelligence a number of U.S. units and commanders had been taken out.

Would U.S. leaders have said nothing and done nothing? Let it go with a strongly worded statement? Probably not. There probably would have been some form of retaliation on our part.

Likewise, if U.S. involvement in this war continues to escalate — and especially if the United States continues to give the Ukrainians battlefield targets in real-time — we should expect and prepare for some kind of retaliation by Moscow.
 
we had an AUMF for Iraq that was (still used) for afghan and various drone srikes

US is up to it's eyeballs in this war as well -vote on it
 
Congress should immediately debate and vote AUMF on Ukraine

The problem is that Biden does not want the authorization, and so authorizing it does nothing. Let me put it like this, there is either authorization or not. If Congress authorizes American troops in Ukraine, Biden will not put them there, and so it is meaningless. If Congress refuses to authorize American troops in Ukraine, Biden will not put them there, and so it is meaningless.

We might as well all debate sending troops to fight in Narnia.
 
Because the news we might be giving Ukraine real-time Russian targets on the battlefield isn’t some trifling or technical thing.

I guess you can try to make a law against giving intelligence to Ukraine, even for the President. It is not a law right now, and it would be tough to make it a law. Even if Republicans control both houses of Congress, I doubt they would have enough to override a filibuster or a veto. I even doubt they would have the will to be that publicly in support of Putin.

I guess you will have to wait until 2025, and hope that trump wins in 2024. At that point, trump could help out Putin.

Why is it so important to Republicans that Putin wins in his invasion of Ukraine?
 
we had an AUMF for Iraq that was (still used) for afghan and various drone srikes

We have a global war on terror authorization which applies to Afghanistan, and almost anywhere else on earth. We can strike Al Qaeda, its descendants, and its allies, anywhere.

That would not apply to Ukraine(assuming Al Qaeda has not joined Russia), but given we are not using drones in Ukraine, it does not need to. We are providing drones to Ukraine, and they are using them. That has been fully authorized by Congress, so is fully legal.

US is up to it's eyeballs in this war as well -vote on it

If Republicans do not want drones to be given to Ukraine, they can try to block funding to that. So far they have not been brave enough to do that.
 
We have a global war on terror authorization which applies to Afghanistan, and almost anywhere else on earth. We can strike Al Qaeda, its descendants, and its allies, anywhere.

That would not apply to Ukraine(assuming Al Qaeda has not joined Russia), but given we are not using drones in Ukraine, it does not need to. We are providing drones to Ukraine, and they are using them. That has been fully authorized by Congress, so is fully legal.
we are actively at war with Russia . It's much more then the mindless weapons train

Pentagon Says Ukrainian Soldiers Getting Drone Training In US
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pen...soldiers-getting-drone-training-in-us-2867567

~~
and it's not so much the weapons it's operations where we act with real time intelligence
coordination with Uk forces ( there is a lag time of 20-30 seconds so Kirby can claim it's not "real time")

If Congress wants to partner with Uk in killing generals and Neptune logistic for the Moskva
it needs to authorize that use of force
 
Pentagon Says Ukrainian Soldiers Getting Drone Training In US

Yes. They are mostly getting training in Poland, but some are getting training in the US. They are mostly getting trained by Americans, but there are other NATO countries also training them.

If you want to cut off funding for their training, call your member of Congress. Even most Republicans are scared to be that pro-Putin.
 
The problem is that Biden does not want the authorization, and so authorizing it does nothing. Let me put it like this, there is either authorization or not. If Congress authorizes American troops in Ukraine, Biden will not put them there, and so it is meaningless. If Congress refuses to authorize American troops in Ukraine, Biden will not put them there, and so it is meaningless.

We might as well all debate sending troops to fight in Narnia.
with stand off weapons and coordination with Uk on the battlefield it's no longer a simple test of if we have troops there or not
for an AUMF
We use the AUMF in Yemen to kill terrorists without anyone on the ground

FFS we are warring (if you want to call it proxy fine -but it looks like direct coordiantion to me)
against a hostile nuclear power that has claimed "first strike" in some circumstances
Congress needs to hold hearings

Im not talking legal niceties - this is the most serious war we have been in because it depends on how Putin reacts to our war making.. The potential isn't high for nuke strikes now but that can change,
and ANY possibility of a nuke attack by Russia on Ukraine has bad juju written all over it

The American people need more then just weapons sales/lend lease -
they and Congress need to understand and debate this from different situational war games
and leadership in Russia potential strategy

I dont think Congress has really thought this through there was no debate on our posture-
and the American people are being kept in the dark
Maybe as nor as much as Pelosi wants, but most Americans cant put these concept together without discussion
 
America does shit like this all the time. It's no different than when the CIA helped the Taliban fight off Soviet invaders in the 70s.
 
The problem is making all this shit public. The press does not need to know anything. They'll somehow just spin
it to the left like they always do, and everyone knows Putin is reading every word. We're screwing ourselves.
 
Yes. They are mostly getting training in Poland, but some are getting training in the US. They are mostly getting trained by Americans, but there are other NATO countries also training them.

If you want to cut off funding for their training, call your member of Congress. Even most Republicans are scared to be that pro-Putin.
cherry picking to the nitpicking point of funding avoids the question on the table of the need for an AUMF
The US is providing training, real time intelligence, funding and weapons
we are promising "victory" - what leaders do when they go to war
The only thing we are not doing is active forces in Ukraine - but i think we have done training in Uk as well
 
The problem is making all this shit public. The press does not need to know anything. They'll somehow just spin
it to the left like they always do, and everyone knows Putin is reading every word. We're screwing ourselves.
Putin already know
The American people dont get much coverage of the overwhelming US role in the war.

The public needs to know this is not just selling weapons to Ukraine
 
We use the AUMF in Yemen to kill terrorists without anyone on the ground

True, but we did not need AUMF to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia for them to use in Yemen, nor to give Saudi Arabia intelligence to use in Yemen.


Congress needs to hold hearings

Democrats are happy to support Ukrainians in defending their country. Republicans are to scared to publicly say they support Putin, so even if they win the next election, I doubt there will be hearings. Your best bet is to elect Putin supporting trump, but that will take time.
 
Legislatures are annoyances for Totalitarian Revolutionaries such as the WOKE....they tend to avoid them as best as possible.
 
True, but we did not need AUMF to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia for them to use in Yemen, nor to give Saudi Arabia intelligence to use in Yemen.

We need the AUMF to authorize our droning of AQAP in Yemen
we need one for our operations in Ukraine as well



Democrats are happy to support Ukrainians in defending their country. Republicans are to scared to publicly say they support Putin, so even if they win the next election, I doubt there will be hearings. Your best bet is to elect Putin supporting trump, but that will take time.
partisan junk. Many Republicans are stated war dogs same as Dems
I doubt there will be hearings either as Peleosi doesnt even want the US to know we are operating in close coordination with Ukraine. the last thing she wants is hearings to inform the public how deep in shit we are
 
cherry picking to the nitpicking point of funding avoids the question on the table of the need for an AUMF

You have a problem with funding, so you should deal with that. The USA is not using military force, so why authorize it? Approving it gives Biden a power he will not use, and not authorizing it removes a power, he would not have used.

The US is providing training, real time intelligence, funding and weapons

Those are all funding issues.

we are promising "victory" - what leaders do when they go to war

American intelligence predicted defeat within 72 hours of invasion. That is as far from promising victory as I can imagine. He has turned out far better than predicted.

The only thing we are not doing is active forces in Ukraine - but i think we have done training in Uk as well

Before the war, Congress authorized funding to train Ukrainians in Ukraine. Still not American forces in a combat zone.
 
Putin already know

Putin "knew" Russian troops would be greeted as liberators... Which simply has not happened. Now he "knows" that Ukrainians are somehow being tricked by the USA to care about their country being invaded... I do not think that is even possible. Putin seems to "know" a lot of things that are not true.
 
Originally Posted by anatta
The US is providing training, real time intelligence, funding and weapons

Those are all funding issues.
providing training for Uk drone operators after the war started is not "funding"
nor is coordinating intelligence for Ukraine battle groups "funding"

you are dismissed, enough falsifications and pettifogging from you
 
Putin "knew" Russian troops would be greeted as liberators... Which simply has not happened. Now he "knows" that Ukrainians are somehow being tricked by the USA to care about their country being invaded... I do not think that is even possible. Putin seems to "know" a lot of things that are not true.
redacted phrase from my post so you can stand on your soap box.
No need for me to reply to your rant
 
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