Columbus Day? Really?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WinterBorn
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Darla said:
Aren't you like 35 or something? What do you need a stress test for? This is what happens when you're a righty, you are always stressing out over something. You better start chilling out. I recommend copious amounts of weed and masturbation.
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LOL...nah, I'm 44. Heart disease runs in my family. Two older brothers had to have bypass surgery at 46 & 47, then dad, but he was 75. All my testing is precautionary. I haven't had any problems as of yet. I suppose the difference between me and my brothers are that I have been and am much more active than they. Played sports in high school and beyond. Now, no sports but it is nothing to walk 5 - 10 miles in a day hunting. I have always been somewhat overweight and that doesn't help. I can't remember a time when I didn't weigh 200 lbs. Right now, 6' and 220 lbs. Doc says to get to 175 but that doesn't seem like a realistic goal. Anyway, all is well as of today's test.
 
leaningright said:
LOL...nah, I'm 44. Heart disease runs in my family. Two older brothers had to have bypass surgery at 46 & 47, then dad, but he was 75. All my testing is precautionary. I haven't had any problems as of yet. I suppose the difference between me and my brothers are that I have been and am much more active than they. Played sports in high school and beyond. Now, no sports but it is nothing to walk 5 - 10 miles in a day hunting. I have always been somewhat overweight and that doesn't help. I can't remember a time when I didn't weigh 200 lbs. Right now, 6' and 220 lbs. Doc says to get to 175 but that doesn't seem like a realistic goal. Anyway, all is well as of today's test.
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Oh that's good then.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Absolutely. Did his discovery of the New World herald an era of unfathomable carnage and genocide? Yes. Was he a poor public administrator? Yes. Was he a lousy business man? Yes. Was he one of the greatest Mariners, Admirals and explorers in human history? Absolutely he was.

There's a lot of bullshit mythology about Columbus just as their is about Lincoln and Washington and, as with those two, there's also a lot of revisionist history about Columbus but as with Lincoln and Washington the real man is even more fascinating and is with out a doubt deserving of the accolades history has heaped upon him.
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Spot on. Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas, but his were the voyages that brought the New World to the attention of Europe. His were the voyages that proved people could go far beyond the known, and still come back. His were the voyages that opened up exploration to a degree never experienced before - or since. For all his faults, he was an intelligent and brave man, a decent leader of men, and a great explorer. What his actions did for the exploration of the world is definitely worth recognizing. The idea that Columbus Day should take a powder because a bunch of dough heads have decided celebrating the opening of the New World to exploration is no longer politically correct is pure foolishness.

While the revisionists love to take historical figures and demonize them in the name of political correctness, it is hardly all the fault of Columbus for the actions following his exploratory voyages, with Europeans of many nations coming over here and looting the place, killing natives at will, etc. etc. etc. Undoubtedly Columbus would not have given those actions a second thought, nor would anyone else of that time. But there is a difference between recognizing the wrongs of history and of historical figures - and condemning them for actions which were widely accepted as "normal" for the times. The former allows us to avoid making the same mistakes should we find ourselves in similar circumstances ever again. The latter is nothing more than self righteous breast beating.
 
I dont even get presidents day off. I get MLK day however. I think election day makes more sense.. Honestly i think they just like to pick one day per month during school months.
 
Chapdog said:
I dont even get presidents day off. I get MLK day however. I think election day makes more sense.. Honestly i think they just like to pick one day per month during school months.
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Isn't it odd that dead white president's birthdays have become less important than a dead black guy who wasn't a president.
 
leaningright said:
LOL...nah, I'm 44. Heart disease runs in my family. Two older brothers had to have bypass surgery at 46 & 47, then dad, but he was 75. All my testing is precautionary. I haven't had any problems as of yet. I suppose the difference between me and my brothers are that I have been and am much more active than they. Played sports in high school and beyond. Now, no sports but it is nothing to walk 5 - 10 miles in a day hunting. I have always been somewhat overweight and that doesn't help. I can't remember a time when I didn't weigh 200 lbs. Right now, 6' and 220 lbs. Doc says to get to 175 but that doesn't seem like a realistic goal. Anyway, all is well as of today's test.
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It's certainly a realistic goal LR. PM me if you need help with that. I'm doing the same thing and it's not as hard as you think.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's odd. How comes it's only the righties who seem to be real preoccupied with where I put my penis? No one else really gives a rats ass.
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For the elevenhunreth time I don't care where you put it, as long as you don't put it anywhere near me. Stop lying about Conservatives.
 
Good Luck said:
Spot on. Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas, but his were the voyages that brought the New World to the attention of Europe. His were the voyages that proved people could go far beyond the known, and still come back. His were the voyages that opened up exploration to a degree never experienced before - or since. For all his faults, he was an intelligent and brave man, a decent leader of men, and a great explorer. What his actions did for the exploration of the world is definitely worth recognizing. The idea that Columbus Day should take a powder because a bunch of dough heads have decided celebrating the opening of the New World to exploration is no longer politically correct is pure foolishness.

While the revisionists love to take historical figures and demonize them in the name of political correctness, it is hardly all the fault of Columbus for the actions following his exploratory voyages, with Europeans of many nations coming over here and looting the place, killing natives at will, etc. etc. etc. Undoubtedly Columbus would not have given those actions a second thought, nor would anyone else of that time. But there is a difference between recognizing the wrongs of history and of historical figures - and condemning them for actions which were widely accepted as "normal" for the times. The former allows us to avoid making the same mistakes should we find ourselves in similar circumstances ever again. The latter is nothing more than self righteous breast beating.
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I by and large agree with you but I do think it's important that we recognize that the consequences of Columbus's voyages were not exactly benign for a lot of people. Though no fault of Columbus, he also opened the door to the worst example of genocide in human history. It opened the door to murder and the whole sale slaughter of human beings that the world had never seen in history and would not see again till the great world wars of the 20th century. I can certainly understand why the descendents of those victims dont' particularly care to celebrate Columbus day. The meaning of it for them is of human tragedy on an unimaginably horrific scale.

Though that takes nothing away from Columbus's discovery or his contributions as an explorer and a man (the genocide that occurred certainly wasn't his fault) the slaughter of the tens of millions of native Americans that followed his discovery should not be forgotten about either.
 
Damn Yankee said:
For the elevenhunreth time I don't care where you put it, as long as you don't put it anywhere near me. Stop lying about Conservatives.
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Yea right, if we left it up to wingnuts there'd be a cam in everyones bedroom to make sure we prayed to Jesus before we did it just for procration purposes purly in the missionary position! LOL
 
Chapdog said:
I dont even get presidents day off. I get MLK day however. I think election day makes more sense.. Honestly i think they just like to pick one day per month during school months.
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Democrats have tried that in the past and Republicans with corporate funding have faught them tooth claw and nail on that. You want to see Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the Faux News crowd go nuts and spaz out, suggest that election day should be a national holiday! LOL
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Yea right, if we left it up to wingnuts there'd be a cam in everyones bedroom to make sure we prayed to Jesus before we did it just for procration purposes purly in the missionary position! LOL
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Classic 15ppMoot. You can't justify your accusation so you make a joke about it. You're a liar, and a fool.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I by and large agree with you but I do think it's important that we recognize that the consequences of Columbus's voyages were not exactly benign for a lot of people. Though no fault of Columbus, he also opened the door to the worst example of genocide in human history. It opened the door to murder and the whole sale slaughter of human beings that the world had never seen in history and would not see again till the great world wars of the 20th century. I can certainly understand why the descendents of those victims dont' particularly care to celebrate Columbus day. The meaning of it for them is of human tragedy on an unimaginably horrific scale.

Though that takes nothing away from Columbus's discovery or his contributions as an explorer and a man (the genocide that occurred certainly wasn't his fault) the slaughter of the tens of millions of native Americans that followed his discovery should not be forgotten about either.
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Blaming Columbus, or even associating him with the imperialist expansions that led to the horrors perpetrated against American natives of the time is as stupid as blaming Jesus Christ for the Inquisition. It's stupid. Blame Columbus for the things Columbus did when he was here, such as kidnapping several natives to take back with him, most of whom died during the voyage. By today's standard Columbus was definitely no saint. His attitude toward the natives was how they would make good servants (those who were not converted to Christianity) - an entirely imperialist attitude. But imperialism was the attitude of all Europe at that time. It would have been as hard to find a European in the 1400s who did not believe in imperialism as it would be to find a United States citizen who does not believe in freedom of speech.

Yes, the things done to American native peoples in the name of European (especially Spanish) imperialist expansion should be remembered. We remember many events. We remember being sold blankets purposely infected with small pox virus. OTOH, we also remember the raids we conducted on neighboring nations, before the pale face was ever a problem, gaining slaves and treasures and hunting lands. (ie: imperialism of our own - it was not limited to Europeans.) Like I said: remember the bad stuff, so we can avoid making the same mistakes in the future in how we treat people of other lands.

But as far as I am concerned, people who dislike Columbus - and thereby Columbus Day - because of what came after are dough heads.
 
Good Luck said:
Blaming Columbus, or even associating him with the imperialist expansions that led to the horrors perpetrated against American natives of the time is as stupid as blaming Jesus Christ for the Inquisition. It's stupid. Blame Columbus for the things Columbus did when he was here, such as kidnapping several natives to take back with him, most of whom died during the voyage. By today's standard Columbus was definitely no saint. His attitude toward the natives was how they would make good servants (those who were not converted to Christianity) - an entirely imperialist attitude. But imperialism was the attitude of all Europe at that time. It would have been as hard to find a European in the 1400s who did not believe in imperialism as it would be to find a United States citizen who does not believe in freedom of speech.

Yes, the things done to American native peoples in the name of European (especially Spanish) imperialist expansion should be remembered. We remember many events. We remember being sold blankets purposely infected with small pox virus. OTOH, we also remember the raids we conducted on neighboring nations, before the pale face was ever a problem, gaining slaves and treasures and hunting lands. (ie: imperialism of our own - it was not limited to Europeans.) Like I said: remember the bad stuff, so we can avoid making the same mistakes in the future in how we treat people of other lands.

But as far as I am concerned, people who dislike Columbus - and thereby Columbus Day - because of what came after are dough heads.
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Again, in general I agree with you, though I can certainly see the point of view of a native American that he's not exactly one of their favorite people. That has nothing to do with Columbus per se but rather the era he ushered in. I don't know of any native Americans who blame Columbus for what happened but rather he is a symbol for them of the beginning of a horrible era for their people and culture.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Again, in general I agree with you, though I can certainly see the point of view of a native American that he's not exactly one of their favorite people. That has nothing to do with Columbus per se but rather the era he ushered in. I don't know of any native Americans who blame Columbus for what happened but rather he is a symbol for them of the beginning of a horrible era for their people and culture.
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Well, being 3/4 NA, I don't see it. Yes, Columbus led in the New World expansionist era. But try to remember what was going on at the time. The focus of exploratory voyaging was on the spice trade - the attempt to find faster and cheaper trade routes to the far east. If Columbus had not made his voyage westward to reach the east, someone else would have, and most likely within the same general period of time. The discovery by Europe of the western continents was an event whose time had come. The "blame" (for lack of a better word) for the events which followed the discovery of the New World can only be placed on the overall attitude of imperialism that saturated the entirety of the European continent. And that attitude can only be laid at the feet of the human creature itself, indeed, at the feet of basic biology, for it is a biological fact that any species will expand to EXCEED its environment, and from their either move on to new environments, or undergo catastrophic adjustment.

The imperialism of the 15th century was nothing more than expression of population pressure. We hadn't the technology to get the 40+ bushels per acre of wheat that we see today. In the 1400s they were lucky to get 3. Other crops had similar comparative yields. Nor was there the technology we have today that can turn non-arable lands into vast food preserves. The bottom line is Europe was running into the upper limit of population that thheir land and technological levels could sustain. They went through some minor catastrophic adjustments, from plagues to wars, but expansionism was the method preferred, both from a human thought POV, as well as a biological survival-of-the-species POV. Discovery of the New World gave them the opportunity to expand that had not been available since before the Crusades.

Yes, it is tragic that there were younger, less technologically developed cultures in the way of their expansionist mandates. It is, from the modern view, disgusting what European immigrants did to the natives. But for any one of us, INCLUDING Native Americans, to suppose they would not have gleefully participated, had we been born and raised in that time and in that European culture, is to be a colossal self-righteous twerp.
 
People who hate Columbus Day do so for the following reason: If that mofo hadn't landed in this hemisphere, then this fucking country wouldn't exist, goddammit!!!
 
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