CNN Poll: Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?

[Topspin]

CNN Poll: Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
Posted: October 19th, 2009 12:34 PM ET

From CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser


Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
WASHINGTON (CNN) - A slight majority of Americans think that the war in Afghanistan is turning into another Vietnam, according to a new national poll which also indicates that nearly six in 10 oppose sending more U.S. troops to the conflict.

Fifty-two percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say the eight year long conflict has turned into a situation like the U.S. faced in the Vietnam War, with 46 percent disagreeing.

According to the poll, 59 percent of people questioned opposed sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan with 39 percent in favor. Of the 59 percent opposed, 28 percent want Washington to withdraw all U.S troops, 21 percent are calling for a partial American pullout, and 8 percent say the number of troops should remain the same.

"Has Afghanistan turned into Barack Obama's Vietnam? Most Americans think so, and that may be one reason why they oppose sending more U.S. troops to that country," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Older Americans are most likely to see parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam - possibly because they remember the Vietnam War, rather than reading about it in textbooks."


President Barack Obama and his top military, national security and foreign policy advisers are conducting an intensive strategic review of the U.S. military presence in the war-torn country. The president is weighing a suggestion by the top American military commander in Afghanistan to increase force levels by as many as 40,000 troops.

More than two-thirds of people polled say it's unlikely Afghanistan will have stable government in the next few years. And that was before Monday's release of a United Nations report alleging widespread fraud in the recent Afghanistan elections. According to the survey, around two-thirds also feel that its unlikely that without American assistance, the Afghan military and police will be able to keep their country safe and secure or prevent terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base of operations for planning attacks against the U.S.

The poll indicates that six in 10 Americans feel it's necessary to keep U.S. forces in Afghanistan in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States. And a similar number say the conflict in Afghanistan is part of the war against terrorism which began with the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

"That's probably the reason why Afghanistan is still more popular than the war in Iraq," Say Holland. "Many Americans make the connection between 9/11 and Afghanistan, and the public recognizes that there is little chance that the Afghan government can deal with terrorists on its own."

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, with 1,038 adult Americans questioned by telephone.

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

 

[belme1201]

CNN Poll: Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
Posted: October 19th, 2009 12:34 PM ET

From CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser


Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
WASHINGTON (CNN) - A slight majority of Americans think that the war in Afghanistan is turning into another Vietnam, according to a new national poll which also indicates that nearly six in 10 oppose sending more U.S. troops to the conflict.

Fifty-two percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say the eight year long conflict has turned into a situation like the U.S. faced in the Vietnam War, with 46 percent disagreeing.

According to the poll, 59 percent of people questioned opposed sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan with 39 percent in favor. Of the 59 percent opposed, 28 percent want Washington to withdraw all U.S troops, 21 percent are calling for a partial American pullout, and 8 percent say the number of troops should remain the same.

"Has Afghanistan turned into Barack Obama's Vietnam? Most Americans think so, and that may be one reason why they oppose sending more U.S. troops to that country," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Older Americans are most likely to see parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam - possibly because they remember the Vietnam War, rather than reading about it in textbooks."


President Barack Obama and his top military, national security and foreign policy advisers are conducting an intensive strategic review of the U.S. military presence in the war-torn country. The president is weighing a suggestion by the top American military commander in Afghanistan to increase force levels by as many as 40,000 troops.

More than two-thirds of people polled say it's unlikely Afghanistan will have stable government in the next few years. And that was before Monday's release of a United Nations report alleging widespread fraud in the recent Afghanistan elections. According to the survey, around two-thirds also feel that its unlikely that without American assistance, the Afghan military and police will be able to keep their country safe and secure or prevent terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base of operations for planning attacks against the U.S.

The poll indicates that six in 10 Americans feel it's necessary to keep U.S. forces in Afghanistan in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States. And a similar number say the conflict in Afghanistan is part of the war against terrorism which began with the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

"That's probably the reason why Afghanistan is still more popular than the war in Iraq," Say Holland. "Many Americans make the connection between 9/11 and Afghanistan, and the public recognizes that there is little chance that the Afghan government can deal with terrorists on its own."

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, with 1,038 adult Americans questioned by telephone.

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Afghanistan buried the Soviet Union, it will bury the USA if it continues without a near term exit strategy. A Surge only insures a prolonged, indefinite conclusion. The time to "win" that war has come and gone, the ball has already been dropped and no general's face-saving pacifying effort can cover that fact.
Every General since Eisenhower has preferred the BIG solution for every problem, real or imagined. Can anybody tell me what the Taliban have to do with 9/11?
I can't stand them either, they're religious fanatics, but they aren't responsible for the problems we perceive.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The Taliban harbored Bin Ladin and Al Quada. They gave them safe haven. Without the Taliban, there would've been no 9/11. And once we withdraw, they will perform the same functions all over again.

 

[belme1201]

The Taliban harbored Bin Ladin and Al Quada. They gave them safe haven. Without the Taliban, there would've been no 9/11. And once we withdraw, they will perform the same functions all over again.

When do we attack Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
We went in with good intentions then lost focus as a result of stupidity and lies. The Taliban left and came back, there is no way to "win". Today is 8 years later, how long is too long?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

wait, I thought Iraq was supposed to be Vietnam......

 

[apple0154]

According to the survey, around two-thirds also feel that its unlikely that without American assistance, the Afghan military and police will be able to keep their country safe and secure or prevent terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base of operations for planning attacks against the U.S.

Can someone explain to me why they think terrorists need Afghanistan as a base for operations and planning? Their "military headquarters" are tents. They are not building rockets. Why do people think they need a base?

They can plan attacks from a "base" in Pakistan or Iran or Iraq or Syria or any of a dozen of other countries. If I recall correctly a large part of the planning for 911 took place in an apartment in Germany.

The war in Afghanistan is not to stop bases being built. There are no "bases" in the conventional sense with buildings, war machinery, etc. The war is about control of the population and land, not about building bases. The presence of troops is because the Afghan "traitors" are going to be dealt with by the Taliban if we leave. In a sense we set the stage for a civil war. Rather than just go after the terrorists we tried to sway a segment of the population to our side. Those folks turned against their government and if/when we leave guess what will happen.

The same problem exists in Iraq. Part of the population came over to our side with the expectation (promise?) we'd protect them. Of course, under Bush that was fine as Bush had no intention of ever leaving.

Maybe, just maybe, we've learned a lesson? Get the terrorists and leave the internal politics of a country alone.

There's going to be a price to pay regardless of what Obama decides. Just like Viet Nam regardless of how long we stay eventually the price will have to be paid. It is an no-win situation.

The solution is to give the people ample warning we're leaving and apologize, once again, for fuking up their country.

Let's hope we've learned something this time.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

CNN Poll: Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
Posted: October 19th, 2009 12:34 PM ET

From CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser


Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
WASHINGTON (CNN) - A slight majority of Americans think that the war in Afghanistan is turning into another Vietnam, according to a new national poll which also indicates that nearly six in 10 oppose sending more U.S. troops to the conflict.

Fifty-two percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say the eight year long conflict has turned into a situation like the U.S. faced in the Vietnam War, with 46 percent disagreeing.

According to the poll, 59 percent of people questioned opposed sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan with 39 percent in favor. Of the 59 percent opposed, 28 percent want Washington to withdraw all U.S troops, 21 percent are calling for a partial American pullout, and 8 percent say the number of troops should remain the same.

"Has Afghanistan turned into Barack Obama's Vietnam? Most Americans think so, and that may be one reason why they oppose sending more U.S. troops to that country," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Older Americans are most likely to see parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam - possibly because they remember the Vietnam War, rather than reading about it in textbooks."


President Barack Obama and his top military, national security and foreign policy advisers are conducting an intensive strategic review of the U.S. military presence in the war-torn country. The president is weighing a suggestion by the top American military commander in Afghanistan to increase force levels by as many as 40,000 troops.

More than two-thirds of people polled say it's unlikely Afghanistan will have stable government in the next few years. And that was before Monday's release of a United Nations report alleging widespread fraud in the recent Afghanistan elections. According to the survey, around two-thirds also feel that its unlikely that without American assistance, the Afghan military and police will be able to keep their country safe and secure or prevent terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base of operations for planning attacks against the U.S.

The poll indicates that six in 10 Americans feel it's necessary to keep U.S. forces in Afghanistan in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States. And a similar number say the conflict in Afghanistan is part of the war against terrorism which began with the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

"That's probably the reason why Afghanistan is still more popular than the war in Iraq," Say Holland. "Many Americans make the connection between 9/11 and Afghanistan, and the public recognizes that there is little chance that the Afghan government can deal with terrorists on its own."

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, with 1,038 adult Americans questioned by telephone.

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

 

[Lowaicue]

The Taliban harbored Bin Ladin and Al Quada. They gave them safe haven. Without the Taliban, there would've been no 9/11. And once we withdraw, they will perform the same functions all over again.

You seem pretty certain they will launch another attack on America. Do you have inside information? If you know this will happen can't you tell us when and who will be involved? If you know how come your government doesn't? and if they do is it likely they will keep it secret?
Let's say this one more time.
The Taleban don't give a rats arse for America (wow, ain't that a surprise!). They are intent only on forming a fundementalist Islamic state within Afghanistan and Pakistan. They did it before and spent much more time trundling cannons (or whatever) to blow up a few statues than considering the existence of the US.
You will, no doubt, find it something of a surprise that there are people in the world who neither know nor care about America except when you invade their countries.

 

[blackascoal]

The Taliban harbored Bin Ladin and Al Quada. They gave them safe haven. Without the Taliban, there would've been no 9/11. And once we withdraw, they will perform the same functions all over again.

That's not even close to the truth brother .. however, one could indeed say that without the US there would be no Taliban.

 

[Cypress]

Can someone explain to me why they think terrorists need Afghanistan as a base for operations and planning? Their "military headquarters" are tents. They are not building rockets. Why do people think they need a base?

They can plan attacks from a "base" in Pakistan or Iran or Iraq or Syria or any of a dozen of other countries. If I recall correctly a large part of the planning for 911 took place in an apartment in Germany.

You're right. They don't need a whole country for a "base' to carry out terrorist attacks involving small numbers of people. That shit can be planned and executed from an apartment in Germany, as you noted. However, the rhetoric of George Dumbya Bush's "War on Terror" holds many people under it's spell, and the popular mythology now is that al qaeda needs to control a country in order to execute international terrorist attacks.

The reason Al Qaeda was digging afghanistan was not because of training small groups of terrorists. It was because Al Qaeda had a secondary function that went beyond small groups of fanatical terrorists. They were training militias on a large scale. That's what the "training bases" were. From what I've read, Al Qaeda was intent on establishing well trained islamic militias that would go to war to defend fellow muslims who were under attack (aka, Bosnia and Kosovo), or to possibly fight and overthrow authoritarian arab regimes, whom al qaeda considered apostate and which was al qaeda's main intent all along.

Some of our more savvy politicians and policy makers possibly understand this. I'm sure some of our more astute flag officers in the military understand this. However, it's not really a story that sells in a sound bite, and our objectives in the "war on terror" are far too nuanced to be able to sell to message board NeoCons, or the general public.

 

[Socrtease]

That's not even close to the truth brother .. however, one could indeed say that without the US there would be no Taliban.

THis is indeed true. But it was not by action but through inaction that the Taliban was created. After the Soviet Union was chased out of Afghanistan the US dropped the fucking ball. Chalie Wilson attempted to get funding for schools and hosptals and infrastructure for Afghanistan. UNFORTUNATLEY, there was no support from the Whitehouse or from Congress for any of this. So, we chased the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and then failed to fill the vacuum with something other than Fundamentalist Islam, and of the worst kind. After the first Gulf War, I sat and watched as George H.W. Bush abandoned the Kurds when he had promised to help them. My time in the Army including the training of Kurdish rebels who we were supposed to support with airpower in the ensueing rebellion against Sadam Hussein. We abandoned them just as we abandoned the Afghans after the Soviet Union left. I hate that we do that to people that we say we are going to support and I hate that the left, who claims to care so much about the rights of people are so willing to leave them to the ravages of barbarians when the price may become wounded and killed americans. In other words, you talk the talk, you join Amnesty International, you write letters to people and you boycott corporations that do business with human rights violators, but when it comes time to walk the walk, you all are too busy creating protest signs, or organizing a hunger benefit to actually invest blood sweat and tears to defeating evil motherfuckers.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

CNN Poll: Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
Posted: October 19th, 2009 12:34 PM ET

From CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser


Will Afghanistan turn into another Vietnam?
WASHINGTON (CNN) - A slight majority of Americans think that the war in Afghanistan is turning into another Vietnam, according to a new national poll which also indicates that nearly six in 10 oppose sending more U.S. troops to the conflict.

Fifty-two percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say the eight year long conflict has turned into a situation like the U.S. faced in the Vietnam War, with 46 percent disagreeing.

According to the poll, 59 percent of people questioned opposed sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan with 39 percent in favor. Of the 59 percent opposed, 28 percent want Washington to withdraw all U.S troops, 21 percent are calling for a partial American pullout, and 8 percent say the number of troops should remain the same.

"Has Afghanistan turned into Barack Obama's Vietnam? Most Americans think so, and that may be one reason why they oppose sending more U.S. troops to that country," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Older Americans are most likely to see parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam - possibly because they remember the Vietnam War, rather than reading about it in textbooks."


President Barack Obama and his top military, national security and foreign policy advisers are conducting an intensive strategic review of the U.S. military presence in the war-torn country. The president is weighing a suggestion by the top American military commander in Afghanistan to increase force levels by as many as 40,000 troops.

More than two-thirds of people polled say it's unlikely Afghanistan will have stable government in the next few years. And that was before Monday's release of a United Nations report alleging widespread fraud in the recent Afghanistan elections. According to the survey, around two-thirds also feel that its unlikely that without American assistance, the Afghan military and police will be able to keep their country safe and secure or prevent terrorists from using Afghanistan as a base of operations for planning attacks against the U.S.

The poll indicates that six in 10 Americans feel it's necessary to keep U.S. forces in Afghanistan in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States. And a similar number say the conflict in Afghanistan is part of the war against terrorism which began with the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

"That's probably the reason why Afghanistan is still more popular than the war in Iraq," Say Holland. "Many Americans make the connection between 9/11 and Afghanistan, and the public recognizes that there is little chance that the Afghan government can deal with terrorists on its own."

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, with 1,038 adult Americans questioned by telephone.

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Isn't this exactly what they said about Iraq... about the great civil war... about how it was Bush's Vietnam... blah blah blah....

 

[blackascoal]

THis is indeed true. But it was not by action but through inaction that the Taliban was created. After the Soviet Union was chased out of Afghanistan the US dropped the fucking ball. Chalie Wilson attempted to get funding for schools and hosptals and infrastructure for Afghanistan. UNFORTUNATLEY, there was no support from the Whitehouse or from Congress for any of this. So, we chased the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and then failed to fill the vacuum with something other than Fundamentalist Islam, and of the worst kind. After the first Gulf War, I sat and watched as George H.W. Bush abandoned the Kurds when he had promised to help them. My time in the Army including the training of Kurdish rebels who we were supposed to support with airpower in the ensueing rebellion against Sadam Hussein. We abandoned them just as we abandoned the Afghans after the Soviet Union left. I hate that we do that to people that we say we are going to support and I hate that the left, who claims to care so much about the rights of people are so willing to leave them to the ravages of barbarians when the price may become wounded and killed americans. In other words, you talk the talk, you join Amnesty International, you write letters to people and you boycott corporations that do business with human rights violators, but when it comes time to walk the walk, you all are too busy creating protest signs, or organizing a hunger benefit to actually invest blood sweat and tears to defeating evil motherfuckers.

It gets much deeper than that brother.

"Although there is no evidence that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al-Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war." FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, who has been fired from the agency for disclosing sensitive information, has claimed United States was on intimate terms with Taliban and Al-Qaeda, using them to further certain goals in Central Asia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban


"Throughout the world ... its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive — on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man — in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America ... [They are] freedom fighters.”
--- Ronald Reagan, March 8, 1985

Who was he talking about?

Bin Laden only became a “terrorist” in US eyes when he fell out with the Saudi royal family over its decision to allow more than 540,000 US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Between 1978 and 1992, the US government poured at least $6 billion (some estimates range as high as $20 billion) worth of arms, training and funds to prop up the mujaheddin factions. Other Western governments, as well as oil-rich Saudi Arabia, kicked in as much again. Wealthy Arab fanatics, like Osama bin Laden, provided millions more.

Keywords:
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
Mujaheddin
Zbigniew Brzezinski
General Zia ul-Haq
Camp Peary
Operation Cyclone

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

Here's a truth most Americans will reject out of hand without any study .. since WWII, US foreign policy revolves around making the world safe for American corporations; enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress; preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model; extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible.

The CIA has been on a rampage of terrorism, overthrow of legitimate governments, assassination, and the training, funding, and support of a long list of murderers, rapists, and terrorists since WWII.

Americans remain blind and dumb to what we've been doing throughout the world in the name of "freedom."

 

[Topspin]

Isn't this exactly what they said about Iraq... about the great civil war... about how it was Bush's Vietnam... blah blah blah....

Iraq is at least as big a fuck up as Nam was

 

[blackascoal]

Can someone explain to me why they think terrorists need Afghanistan as a base for operations and planning? Their "military headquarters" are tents. They are not building rockets. Why do people think they need a base?

They can plan attacks from a "base" in Pakistan or Iran or Iraq or Syria or any of a dozen of other countries. If I recall correctly a large part of the planning for 911 took place in an apartment in Germany.

The war in Afghanistan is not to stop bases being built. There are no "bases" in the conventional sense with buildings, war machinery, etc. The war is about control of the population and land, not about building bases. The presence of troops is because the Afghan "traitors" are going to be dealt with by the Taliban if we leave. In a sense we set the stage for a civil war. Rather than just go after the terrorists we tried to sway a segment of the population to our side. Those folks turned against their government and if/when we leave guess what will happen.

The same problem exists in Iraq. Part of the population came over to our side with the expectation (promise?) we'd protect them. Of course, under Bush that was fine as Bush had no intention of ever leaving.

Maybe, just maybe, we've learned a lesson? Get the terrorists and leave the internal politics of a country alone.

There's going to be a price to pay regardless of what Obama decides. Just like Viet Nam regardless of how long we stay eventually the price will have to be paid. It is an no-win situation.

The solution is to give the people ample warning we're leaving and apologize, once again, for fuking up their country.

Let's hope we've learned something this time.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

You're right. They don't need a whole country for a "base' to carry out terrorist attacks involving small numbers of people. That shit can be planned and executed from an apartment in Germany, as you noted. However, the rhetoric of George Dumbya Bush's "War on Terror" holds many people under it's spell, and the popular mythology now is that al qaeda needs to control a country in order to execute international terrorist attacks.

The reason Al Qaeda was digging afghanistan was not because of training small groups of terrorists. It was because Al Qaeda had a secondary function that went beyond small groups of fanatical terrorists. They were training militias on a large scale. That's what the "training bases" were. From what I've read, Al Qaeda was intent on establishing well trained islamic militias that would go to war to defend fellow muslims who were under attack (aka, Bosnia and Kosovo), or to possibly fight and overthrow authoritarian arab regimes, whom al qaeda considered apostate and which was al qaeda's main intent all along.

Some of our more savvy politicians and policy makers possibly understand this. I'm sure some of our more astute flag officers in the military understand this. However, it's not really a story that sells in a sound bite, and our objectives in the "war on terror" are far too nuanced to be able to sell to message board NeoCons, or the general public.

so only bush and republicans were talking about the war on terror....

obama never mentioned widening the war on terror....

you're so biased you don't even have a clue what democrats are really saying

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Iraq is at least as big a fuck up as Nam was

not even close, you truly lack understanding of vietnam if you think so

 

[Topspin]

not even close, you truly lack understanding of vietnam if you think so

Spurt, I don't go to warhawks on advice on clusterfucks
My fellow turbo-libs agree Iraq is a huge clusterfuck, Afghanistan is gaining in clusterfuckedness by the day.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Iraq is at least as big a fuck up as Nam was

Its not even close toppy... Not saying that Bush didn't fuck it up for 5 years, but in the end when Bush relinquished control to Patreaus, they did the right thing.

Now that Iraq is relatively stable, the focus has shifted to Afghanistan.

The Biden plan of 'bombing from above' and not sending any more troops sounds very similar to the fucked up strategy Bush used in Iraq. The fact that Obama is considering it shows how unprepared he is for the Presidency (or at least this aspect of it)

 

[Topspin]

Its not even close toppy... Not saying that Bush didn't fuck it up for 5 years, but in the end when Bush relinquished control to Patreaus, they did the right thing.

Now that Iraq is relatively stable, the focus has shifted to Afghanistan.

The Biden plan of 'bombing from above' and not sending any more troops sounds very similar to the fucked up strategy Bush used in Iraq. The fact that Obama is considering it shows how unprepared he is for the Presidency (or at least this aspect of it)

I wouldn't expact a couch warrior like you to understand. Several hundred thousand Arab's murdered who had zip to do with 9/11 is way past a cluster fuck.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Spurt, I don't go to warhawks on advice on clusterfucks
My fellow turbo-libs agree Iraq is a huge clusterfuck, Afghanistan is gaining in clusterfuckedness by the day.

comparing it to vietnam shows you're ignorant about vietnam and simply like to spout ignorant talking points