Climate models are next to useless

cancel2 2022

Canceled
I have been saying pretty the same damn thing for years, if they were any good then you'd only need one not hundreds!

Besides the overwhelming fact that it is fundamentally mathematically impossible for climate models to predict climate there are more good reasons to doubt climate models can predict climate.

You Can't Talk Around Chaos

When most climate scientists, who have little understanding of chaos, are even willing to mention chaos they talk about climate being on an "attractor", which is the shape in phase space (climate variables being the coordinates of this many-dimensional space) of where the climate can be. They then say that while they may not be able to predict exactly where on the attractor the climate is, which is actually the weather, the attractor will give the bounds of this weather, which is the climate. Thus they say that while weather is unpredictable more than 10 days into the future, climate is not.

This explanation conveniently ignores the fact that there is no way to ever know if a climate model's attractor is the same as nature's. When I (Duane Thresher) was at NASA GISS I pointed this out to Dr. Gavin Schmidt, current head of NASA GISS (anointed by former head Dr. James Hansen, the father of global warming) and leading climate change spokesperson. His response was, "We just have to hope they are on the same attractor", literally using the word "hope". They are almost certainly not so a climate model can't predict nature's climate.

Moreover, there is no way to ever know what either attractor looks like. Some climate modelers, as a sop to chaos, pretend to know what an attractor looks like, at least a climate model's, by running "ensembles" -- groups of runs of the same climate simulation starting from different initial conditions. Each run is expensive and time-consuming so there aren't usually enough to be even statistically significant. They often just average these runs and that is their climate prediction. But this average may not even be possible in the climate system.

Which Is It, "Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises" Or Can Climate Be Predicted?

Obviously it can't be both. If you are surprised it means you didn't predict it would happen. And then to call the surprise "inevitable" means the only thing you are certain of is that you can't predict climate.

I (Duane Thresher) was a contributor to the National Academies book Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises. So was Dr. Gavin Schmidt. Unlike Schmidt, I questioned the whole premise but was just a graduate student at the time so didn't speak up.

Abrupt climate change involves "tipping points". The climate is relatively slowly changing until it reaches a point where it rapidly changes, to an opposite extreme to that where it was originally headed. For example, it has been theorized by climate scientists that global warming will cause the ice caps to melt and the resulting freshwater will turn off the thermohaline circulation causing an ice age (which the Earth's current orbital parameters already favor). This was the basis for the movie "The Day After Tomorrow". (We may need as much greenhouse gas as we can generate.)

For tipping points think of a die on its edge and which way it rolls. This is even classically unpredictable -- an infinitesimal unknowable difference in conditions could determine which way it tips, which is again just chaos. Physicists who work with quantum mechanics have already admitted this fundamental unpredictability -- it is time for climate modelers to do the same. (Einstein: "God does not play dice with the universe". Bohr: "Stop telling God what to do".)

Similarly, some climate modelers study whether climate systems have multiple equilibria -- different possible steady-states. If there are multiple equilibria then you can't predict which equilibrium will occur and thus you can't predict climate.

Climate Models Were Never Meant For Prediction

When I first started in climate modeling as a graduate student in the early 1990's it was understood that if you ever claimed that climate models could actually predict climate it would be the end of your career -- the same as if you proposed perpetual motion or cold fusion. Climate models were for studying the various processes of climate. You would research a climate process (insolation in my case then), parameterize (approximate) it in program code in a climate model and study its effect on the resulting climate output from the model.

Unfortunately, some scientists who cared more about publicity than climate science, particularly those who had no graduate work in climate science (or chaos) and could never be famous in their own fields, ignored this warning. This was followed by non-scientists, often failing entertainers, taking over as climate spokespeople. See my article Who Is Qualified To Be A Climate Spokesperson?

If A Climate Model Could Predict Climate Why Would You Need More Than One?

There are numerous climate models and each is extremely expensive. That there are numerous models, that they originally (before comparison) gave significantly different results, and that they are compared, with none hailed as definitive, shows that climate modelers know no model can predict climate, they just want to have their own, for publication and funding advantage. Climate modelers then say that because most of these models now show global warming that proves global warming. However, this ignores that scientists are all-too-human and don't want to be outliers -- after comparison they literally tuned their climate models (this is easily done) to give results more like the rest of the herd. Plus they even started with an assumed result (warming), which is well-known in science to skew results toward that assumption.

http://columbia-phd.org/RealClimato...Climate_Models_Can_Predict_Climate/index.html
 
Climate Science and Policy Affiliated Faculty
Participating Faculty

Lynn Russell, PhD
CSP Program Director
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
lmrussell@ucsd.edu

Lynne Talley, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
ltalley@ucsd.edu

Todd Martz, PhD
Assistant Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
trmartz@ucsd.edu

Richard Somerville, PhD
Professor Emeritus, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
rsomerville@ucsd.edu
V. Ramanathan (Ram), PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
Director, Center for Atmospheric Sciences
vramanathan@ucsd.edu
Daniel Rudnick, PhD
COAP Program Director
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
drudnick@ucsd.edu

Henry Abarnabel, PhD.
Professor, Joint Appointment with Physics & Scripps Institution of Oceanography
habarnabel@ucsd.edu

Charles Kennel, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
ckennel@ucsd.edu

Samuel Shen, PhD
Visiting Research Mathematician, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
s4shen@ucsd.edu

David Victor, PhD
Professor, School of Global Policy and Strategy (GPS)
dgvictor@ucsd.edu

Mark Jacobsen, PhD
Professor, Department of Economics
m3jacobsen@ucsd.edu

Kate Ricke, PhD
Professor, School of Global Policy and Strategy (GPS)

Marty Ralph, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
mralph@ucsd.edu

Dan Lubin, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
dlubin@ucsd.edu

Isabel Rivera-Collazo, PhD
Professor, Anthropology / Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography

Jennifer Vanos, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography
jkvanos@ucsd.edu

Tarik Benmarhnia, PhD
Professor, Climate, Atmospheric Science, and Physical Oceanography / Family Medicine and Public Health
tbenmarhnia@ucsd.edu

Care to get other opinions?
 
I don't see any opinions.
I see what looks like faculty at Scripps.
I see a mission statement for Scripps:

Mission Statement

The Scripps mission is to seek, teach, and communicate scientific understanding of the oceans, atmosphere, Earth, and other planets for the benefit of society and the environment.

Understanding and Protecting the Planet: Scripps's Four Key Topics
Looks good to me.

Anyways, back to the OP. Yeah, climate models are useless .
 
Last edited:
Trying to impress someone I guess. He might want to look at his own list. Here is one of his "experts" from that list.

Mark Jacobsen, PhD
Professor, Department of Economics
m3jacobsen@ucsd.edu

My list is bigger than his list:

Faculty
Division Faculty Pages BMB CDIB SEE
Name Rank Phone E-mail
Eric C. Achberger Associate Professor (225) 578‐2790 eachber@lsu.edu
Barry Aronhime Instructor (225) 578‐9082 baronh1@lsu.edu
Christopher C. Austin Professor (225) 578-2841 ccaustin@lsu.edu
John R. Battista Mary Lou Applewhite Professor (225) 578-2810 jbattis@lsu.edu
Mark A. Batzer LSU System Boyd Professor (225) 578-7102 mbatzer@lsu.edu
K. Adam Bohnert Assistant Professor bohnerta@lsu.edu
Leaf Boswell Instructor (225) 578-0359 lboswe1@lsu.edu
Terry M. Bricker Moreland Family Professor (225) 578-1555 btbric@lsu.edu
Ginger Brininstool Instructor (225) 578‐4089 gbrinin@lsu.edu
Jeremy M. Brown Assistant Professor (225) 578-1745 jembrown@lsu.edu
Robb T. Brumfield Roy Paul Daniels Professor (225) 578-3081 robb@lsu.edu
Michal Brylinski Assistant Professor (225) 578-2791 mbrylinski@lsu.edu
David Burk Assistant Professor- Research (225) 578-8246 david.burk@pbrc.edu
John T. Caprio George C. Kent Professor (225) 578-1741 jcap@lsu.edu
Prosanta Chakrabarty Associate Professor (225) 578-3079 prosanta@lsu.edu
SeYeon Chung Assistant Professor (225) 578-1756 seyeonchung@lsu.edu
James T. Cronin Professor (225) 578-7218 jcronin@lsu.edu
Scott Crousillac Instructor (225) 578‐1754 scrous1@lsu.edu
Maheshi Dassanayake Assistant Professor (225) 578-0960 maheshid@lsu.edu
Patrick J. DiMario Professor (225) 578-1512 pdimari@lsu.edu
Huangen Ding Professor (225) 578-4797 hding@lsu.edu
William T. Doerrler Associate Professor (225) 578-7904 wdoerr@lsu.edu
David Donze Professor (225) 578-7391 ddonze@lsu.edu
Jessica Eberhard Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578-0068 eberhard@lsu.edu
Bret D. Elderd Associate Professor (225) 578-6733 elderd@lsu.edu
Jake Esselstyn Assistant Professor (225) 578-3803 esselstyn@lsu.edu
Brant C. Faircloth Assistant Professor (225) 578-1006 brant@lsu.edu
Rita G. Farrar Senior Instructor (225) 578‐2797 mbfarr@lsu.edu
Fernando Galvez Associate Professor (225) 578-0599 galvezf@lsu.edu
Evanna Gleason Professor (225) 578-1748 egleaso@lsu.edu
Christopher Gregg Senior Instructor (225) 578‐8542 cgregg2@lsu.edu
Anne Grove Gregory Cannaday Burns Professor (225) 578-5148 agrove@lsu.edu
Hollie Hale-Donze Instructor (225) 578-7192 hdonze@lsu.edu
Steven C. Hand Ron and Mary Neal Professor (225) 578-5144 shand@lsu.edu
Kyle E. Harms Professor (225) 578-7566 kharms@lsu.edu
Craig M. Hart Professor (225) 578-7389 chart4@lsu.edu
Michael E. Hellberg Associate Professor (225) 578-1757 mhellbe@lsu.edu
Dominique G. Homberger Andrew Clinton Pereboom Honors Professor (225) 578-1747 zodhomb@lsu.edu
Adam Hrincevich Senior Instructor (225) 578‐7261 zohrin@lsu.edu
Alyssa Johnson Assistant Professor johnsona@lsu.edu
Naohiro Kato Associate Professor (225) 578-2004 kato@lsu.edu
Morgan Kelly Assistant Professor (225) 578-0224 morgankelly@lsu.edu
Joomyeong ‘Joo’ Kim Russell Thompson, Jr. Family Professor (225) 578-7692 jkim@lsu.edu
Gary M. King Professor (225) 578-1901 gking@lsu.edu
Laura Lagomarsino Assistant Professor (225) 578-8555 llagomarsino1@lsu.edu
Roger A. Laine Professor (225) 268-3052 rogerlaine@gmail.com
John C. Larkin Professor (225) 578-8552 jlarkin@lsu.edu
Yong-Hwan Lee Associate Professor (225) 578-0522 yhlee@lsu.edu
Vince J. LiCata Louis S. Flowers Professor (225) 578-5233 licata@lsu.edu
Yuchen Liu Assistant Professor (225)578-0761 yuchenliu@lsu.edu
Rui (Ray) Lu Associate Professor (225) 578-7962 ruilu@lsu.edu
Bing-Hao Luo Associate Professor (225) 578‐7741 luo@lsu.edu
Karen P. Maruska Assistant Professor (225) 578-1738 kmaruska@lsu.edu
Molly McCoy Senior Instructor (225) 578‐5525 mmccoy@lsu.edu
James V. Moroney Streva Alumni Professor (225) 578‐8561 btmoro@lsu.edu
Patricia Moroney Instructor (225) 578‐1769 pmorone@lsu.edu
Marcia Newcomer George C. Kent Professor (225) 578-7383 newcomer@lsu.edu
Khoa Nguyen Instructor (225) 578-8283 knguy37@lsu.edu
Dong-Ha Oh Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578-4918 ohdongha@lsu.edu
Svitlana Pakhomova Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578‐7385 sveta@lsu.edu
LaToya Paul Instructor (225) 578-0359 ltpaul@lsu.edu
Cynthia Peterson Dean (225) 578‐8557 cbpeterson@lsu.edu
Gregg S. Pettis Associate Professor (225) 578‐2798 gpettis@lsu.edu
William J. Platt III Professor (225) 578-6586 btplat@lsu.edu
Steven M. Pomarico Senior Instructor (225) 578‐8785 spomari@lsu.edu
Jane Reiland Instructor (225) 578‐2792 jreiland@lsu.edu
James V. Remsen Jr. John S. McIlhenney Professor (225) 578-2855 najames@lsu.edu
Johnna Roose Instructor (225) 578-8191 jroose@lsu.edu
Raphyel Rosby Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578‐8632 raphyelrosby@lsu.edu
Frederick H. Sheldon George H. Lowery, Jr. Professor (225) 578-2887 fsheld@lsu.edu
Joseph F. Siebenaller Carrie Lynn Yoder Professor (225) 578-1746 zojose@lsu.edu
Aaron P. Smith Associate Professor (225) 578-7643 apsmith@lsu.edu
Jacqueline Stephens Professor (225) 578-1749 jsteph1@lsu.edu
Ryoichi Teruyama Associate Professor (225) 578-4623 rteruyama@lsu.edu
J. Cameron Thrash Assistant Professor (225) 578-8210 thrashc@lsu.edu
Brooke Trabona Instructor (225) 578‐8122
Lowell E. Urbatsch Professor (225) 578‐8555 leu@lsu.edu
David J. Vinyard Assistant Professor (225) 578-1737 dvinyard@lsu.edu
Grover L. Waldrop Professor (225) 578‐5209 gwaldro@lsu.edu
E. William Wischusen Associate Professor (225) 578‐0860 ewischu@lsu.edu

And I even included phone numbers. lol

Back to the OP: Climate models are useless.
 
My list is bigger than his list:

Faculty
Division Faculty Pages BMB CDIB SEE
Name Rank Phone E-mail
Eric C. Achberger Associate Professor (225) 578‐2790 eachber@lsu.edu
Barry Aronhime Instructor (225) 578‐9082 baronh1@lsu.edu
Christopher C. Austin Professor (225) 578-2841 ccaustin@lsu.edu
John R. Battista Mary Lou Applewhite Professor (225) 578-2810 jbattis@lsu.edu
Mark A. Batzer LSU System Boyd Professor (225) 578-7102 mbatzer@lsu.edu
K. Adam Bohnert Assistant Professor bohnerta@lsu.edu
Leaf Boswell Instructor (225) 578-0359 lboswe1@lsu.edu
Terry M. Bricker Moreland Family Professor (225) 578-1555 btbric@lsu.edu
Ginger Brininstool Instructor (225) 578‐4089 gbrinin@lsu.edu
Jeremy M. Brown Assistant Professor (225) 578-1745 jembrown@lsu.edu
Robb T. Brumfield Roy Paul Daniels Professor (225) 578-3081 robb@lsu.edu
Michal Brylinski Assistant Professor (225) 578-2791 mbrylinski@lsu.edu
David Burk Assistant Professor- Research (225) 578-8246 david.burk@pbrc.edu
John T. Caprio George C. Kent Professor (225) 578-1741 jcap@lsu.edu
Prosanta Chakrabarty Associate Professor (225) 578-3079 prosanta@lsu.edu
SeYeon Chung Assistant Professor (225) 578-1756 seyeonchung@lsu.edu
James T. Cronin Professor (225) 578-7218 jcronin@lsu.edu
Scott Crousillac Instructor (225) 578‐1754 scrous1@lsu.edu
Maheshi Dassanayake Assistant Professor (225) 578-0960 maheshid@lsu.edu
Patrick J. DiMario Professor (225) 578-1512 pdimari@lsu.edu
Huangen Ding Professor (225) 578-4797 hding@lsu.edu
William T. Doerrler Associate Professor (225) 578-7904 wdoerr@lsu.edu
David Donze Professor (225) 578-7391 ddonze@lsu.edu
Jessica Eberhard Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578-0068 eberhard@lsu.edu
Bret D. Elderd Associate Professor (225) 578-6733 elderd@lsu.edu
Jake Esselstyn Assistant Professor (225) 578-3803 esselstyn@lsu.edu
Brant C. Faircloth Assistant Professor (225) 578-1006 brant@lsu.edu
Rita G. Farrar Senior Instructor (225) 578‐2797 mbfarr@lsu.edu
Fernando Galvez Associate Professor (225) 578-0599 galvezf@lsu.edu
Evanna Gleason Professor (225) 578-1748 egleaso@lsu.edu
Christopher Gregg Senior Instructor (225) 578‐8542 cgregg2@lsu.edu
Anne Grove Gregory Cannaday Burns Professor (225) 578-5148 agrove@lsu.edu
Hollie Hale-Donze Instructor (225) 578-7192 hdonze@lsu.edu
Steven C. Hand Ron and Mary Neal Professor (225) 578-5144 shand@lsu.edu
Kyle E. Harms Professor (225) 578-7566 kharms@lsu.edu
Craig M. Hart Professor (225) 578-7389 chart4@lsu.edu
Michael E. Hellberg Associate Professor (225) 578-1757 mhellbe@lsu.edu
Dominique G. Homberger Andrew Clinton Pereboom Honors Professor (225) 578-1747 zodhomb@lsu.edu
Adam Hrincevich Senior Instructor (225) 578‐7261 zohrin@lsu.edu
Alyssa Johnson Assistant Professor johnsona@lsu.edu
Naohiro Kato Associate Professor (225) 578-2004 kato@lsu.edu
Morgan Kelly Assistant Professor (225) 578-0224 morgankelly@lsu.edu
Joomyeong ‘Joo’ Kim Russell Thompson, Jr. Family Professor (225) 578-7692 jkim@lsu.edu
Gary M. King Professor (225) 578-1901 gking@lsu.edu
Laura Lagomarsino Assistant Professor (225) 578-8555 llagomarsino1@lsu.edu
Roger A. Laine Professor (225) 268-3052 rogerlaine@gmail.com
John C. Larkin Professor (225) 578-8552 jlarkin@lsu.edu
Yong-Hwan Lee Associate Professor (225) 578-0522 yhlee@lsu.edu
Vince J. LiCata Louis S. Flowers Professor (225) 578-5233 licata@lsu.edu
Yuchen Liu Assistant Professor (225)578-0761 yuchenliu@lsu.edu
Rui (Ray) Lu Associate Professor (225) 578-7962 ruilu@lsu.edu
Bing-Hao Luo Associate Professor (225) 578‐7741 luo@lsu.edu
Karen P. Maruska Assistant Professor (225) 578-1738 kmaruska@lsu.edu
Molly McCoy Senior Instructor (225) 578‐5525 mmccoy@lsu.edu
James V. Moroney Streva Alumni Professor (225) 578‐8561 btmoro@lsu.edu
Patricia Moroney Instructor (225) 578‐1769 pmorone@lsu.edu
Marcia Newcomer George C. Kent Professor (225) 578-7383 newcomer@lsu.edu
Khoa Nguyen Instructor (225) 578-8283 knguy37@lsu.edu
Dong-Ha Oh Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578-4918 ohdongha@lsu.edu
Svitlana Pakhomova Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578‐7385 sveta@lsu.edu
LaToya Paul Instructor (225) 578-0359 ltpaul@lsu.edu
Cynthia Peterson Dean (225) 578‐8557 cbpeterson@lsu.edu
Gregg S. Pettis Associate Professor (225) 578‐2798 gpettis@lsu.edu
William J. Platt III Professor (225) 578-6586 btplat@lsu.edu
Steven M. Pomarico Senior Instructor (225) 578‐8785 spomari@lsu.edu
Jane Reiland Instructor (225) 578‐2792 jreiland@lsu.edu
James V. Remsen Jr. John S. McIlhenney Professor (225) 578-2855 najames@lsu.edu
Johnna Roose Instructor (225) 578-8191 jroose@lsu.edu
Raphyel Rosby Assistant Professor - Research (225) 578‐8632 raphyelrosby@lsu.edu
Frederick H. Sheldon George H. Lowery, Jr. Professor (225) 578-2887 fsheld@lsu.edu
Joseph F. Siebenaller Carrie Lynn Yoder Professor (225) 578-1746 zojose@lsu.edu
Aaron P. Smith Associate Professor (225) 578-7643 apsmith@lsu.edu
Jacqueline Stephens Professor (225) 578-1749 jsteph1@lsu.edu
Ryoichi Teruyama Associate Professor (225) 578-4623 rteruyama@lsu.edu
J. Cameron Thrash Assistant Professor (225) 578-8210 thrashc@lsu.edu
Brooke Trabona Instructor (225) 578‐8122
Lowell E. Urbatsch Professor (225) 578‐8555 leu@lsu.edu
David J. Vinyard Assistant Professor (225) 578-1737 dvinyard@lsu.edu
Grover L. Waldrop Professor (225) 578‐5209 gwaldro@lsu.edu
E. William Wischusen Associate Professor (225) 578‐0860 ewischu@lsu.edu

And I even included phone numbers. lol

Back to the OP: Climate models are useless.
I still can't stop laughing about Cypress claiming climate models were evidence.
 
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