Christianity is on the decline in America.

bravo said:
Nor would a 'God' for that matter.....one that could create the universe.....

You can't have it both ways, right....you either believe it or you don't....
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If there is a God, it would "be" nature, but I have no idea if there is a god, goddess or gods. No one does for that matter, it is just "faith".
 
wiseones2cents said:
Well it goes something like this. The basic doctrines of all Christian denominations are similar(meaning there is truth). I see that the larger and longer a denomination has been around? The more corrupt. Usually because there is more money involved in the larger ones.

I have an easy guide. if they preach love? Chances are they are preaching the truth. Unless it is love of money, immorality, ect... If they preach hate? Chances are they are not teaching truth. Unless that hate is against things like greed, unrighteousness and injustice. If they embrace these things that are fruits of evil, then they cant be Christian.
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So you're not gonna endorse the Baptists over the United Church of Church, or whatever.....
Thats a good dodge....
Reality is EVERY religion is maned by HUMANS....humans that are capable of the vilest evil or the best of compassion and love.....its human nature at its best and worst
and it has nothing to do with minor variations of religious doctrine or teaching......

Each religion believes some weird crap that another doesn't......but when its all said and done, we usually have nothing to fear from any of them......who the hell really cares what they believe or worship within civil limits....

Defending our constitution is our protection from enemies, religious or political........thats my opinion
 
Carlos Spicy Weiner said:
Anyway, here's the way I see it:

If you want the apocalypse to come sometime in the near future, hope for Christianity to completely fall apart.
If you don't want the apocalypse to come anytime in the near future, hope for a massive resurgence in Christian faith.

That's pretty much why I stopped worrying about the state of Christianity in modern times. World's gotta end, sometime...
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This is the way I see it......

Every time corruption starts to grab hold of society? The preachers who are slaves to corruption tell the people to just sit back because these are signs that Jesus is coming. They are basically stalling for time so they can continue their immoral lives.

Eventually things get so back that people stop waiting for Jesus and take maters into their own hands. A revolution occurs. And prosperity is restored with the over throw of the corrupters.

Eventually corruption sneaks back in and the cycle continues.

The ministers talk of all the signs.

2 Timothy 3:1-3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 Timothy 3

1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

But are these new signs? Not according to ancient Greece.

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."

Socrates.

Or this one?

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."

Aristotle

Basically the Bible seems to be a guide to warn us about when corruption sets in and how a leader/revolutionary will rise out of the people and lead the revolution.
 
bravo said:
Hey thanks.....I rest my case.....

Point proven....
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Your an idiot. What looks worse? When a poor guy steals or a judge is caught stealing? You'd expect a judge not to steal.

A real Christian is guiding by the Spirit and not guided by the flesh as most humans are.
 
bravo said:
So....you're on the lookout for UFOs are you ?.....but nothing 'supernatural'........figures.
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I actually changed it to advanced instead of supernatural. If they are using advanced knowledge, it may seem supernatural to us, but it really isn't. Heck if we were to bring a lighter back in time and light it up they would be thinking it was supernatural.lol

I would bet money that there are other lifeforms in our universe.
 
Carlos Spicy Weiner said:
Furthermore, Christianity was always doomed to wind-up where it is, because the fate of the religion was placed in the hands of the most unreliable peoples on the Earth - the European barbarians. All those unclothed, human sacrificing, civilization-wrecking Gauls/Anglo-Saxons/Celts/etc. They did a shitty job practicing the religion in 1000, and they still do a shitty job practicing it in 2000.
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Well you are 1/2 right. The secular Romans were running the show and placing people in positions of authority in the Church. Why? The pagans seen all the money that was being left to these Christian leaders(by donations and widows leaving their entire inheritance) and they wanted a piece of the action. The Romans were quite civilized as opposed to the others.When the Germanic tribes who were barbarians took over the empire, THEN things got even worse..........

Basically saying that the Church for most of its history has been a slave to secular/pagan powers. As was Judaism for the most part. Not too many true pious leaders. If there were, they didn't last very long. They were exiled, assassinated, imprisoned, ect....
 
bravo said:
So you're not gonna endorse the Baptists over the United Church of Church, or whatever.....
Thats a good dodge....
Reality is EVERY religion is maned by HUMANS....humans that are capable of the vilest evil or the best of compassion and love.....its human nature at its best and worst
and it has nothing to do with minor variations of religious doctrine or teaching......

Each religion believes some weird crap that another doesn't......but when its all said and done, we usually have nothing to fear from any of them......who the hell really cares what they believe or worship within civil limits....

Defending our constitution is our protection from enemies, religious or political........thats my opinion
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I find non-denomination churches with smaller group of followers are closer to the truth. I study a few denominations and some I thought closer to the truth then others, but cant recall which ones placed above or below. I do know that the larger denominations are corrupt to the core.

I can see you are not a born again Christian. A true Christian has killed the flesh(what you would call human nature) and serves the Spirit. It is MUCH less likely that these TRUE born again Christians would commit vile acts.

If your evil, you have punishment to fear. Your constitution just like the Bible can be interpreted to suit the interests of the ones that believe they have the authority to interpret it. That is the problem.

The laws of the Gospel has withstood the test of time. Over 2000 years. You think your constitution will even last half of that?
 
wiseones2cents said:
I find non-denomination churches with smaller group of followers are closer to the truth. I study a few denominations and some I thought closer to the truth then others, but cant recall which ones placed above or below. I do know that the larger denominations are corrupt to the core.

I can see you are not a born again Christian. A true Christian has killed the flesh(what you would call human nature) and serves the Spirit. It is MUCH less likely that these TRUE born again Christians would commit vile acts.

If your evil, you have punishment to fear. Your constitution just like the Bible can be interpreted to suit the interests of the ones that believe they have the authority to interpret it. That is the problem.

The laws of the Gospel has withstood the test of time. Over 2000 years. You think your constitution will even last half of that?
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There are other religions who lasted as long or longer. Time of belief does not signify truth, there can be many factors which play into the longevity of a belief, like force or fear.
 
Rana said:
There are other religions who lasted as long or longer. Time of belief does not signify truth, there can be many factors which play into the longevity of a belief, like force or fear.
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It usually does. Eventually when something does not ring true, someone will question it.

I'm not talking about belief. I'm talking about Gospel laws. Gospel laws are still recognized by billions of people to this day. What Gospel law would you disagree with? I doubt any. They are universal.
 
wiseones2cents said:
Well you are 1/2 right. The secular Romans were running the show and placing people in positions of authority in the Church. Why? The pagans seen all the money that was being left to these Christian leaders(by donations and widows leaving their entire inheritance) and they wanted a piece of the action. The Romans were quite civilized as opposed to the others.When the Germanic tribes who were barbarians took over the empire, THEN things got even worse..........

Basically saying that the Church for most of its history has been a slave to secular/pagan powers. As was Judaism for the most part. Not too many true pious leaders. If there were, they didn't last very long. They were exiled, assassinated, imprisoned, ect....
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The Jews even underwent a period of reform, where they attempted to do away with texts which signified their being a conquered people. As such, all scriptures originally written in Greek rather than Aramaic/Hebrew were thrown out. Next, all scriptures written in Aramaic/Hebrew, but outside of Judea or Israel were thrown out. Too bad, because this movement has caused debate within Christianity about which scriptures should be included in the Old Testament, and which should be excluded.

The problems with the Romans controlling the Church hierchary continued on into Medieval Europe, where the Investature debate did far more damage to the faith than anything the Romans had ever concerned themselves with.
 
bravo said:
Why don't you prove it is and how it was manufactured .....how the image was made....
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You think the Vatican would let me have it for a few weeks? Ya right!

The shroud was studied by 3 or 4 independent universities already and they say its only about 1000 years old according to carbon dating.....that doesn't change the
minds of believers.....actually, the Catholic Church makes no claims about it one way or another, they just happen to possess it...

You don't seem to know much about the subject, do you ?


Yeah, all religions have their weird beliefs but there is no shortage of followers.....up to 80% Christians in the US....thats a hell of a following....
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Bring it to a famous atheist to analyze it and then I will believe it's authenticity if they acknowledge its not a fake.

80% Christians? Maybe over 100 years ago! Think a lot lower! And many of those people that identify themselves as Christians do not know the first thing about being a true Christian.

If the Christians are being pushed around by the 20%, that is a really sad state of Christianity. But hey! All kneel to the republic! And the constitution that makes this possible! At least according to the interpretation of the 20%!
 
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Don Quixote said:
over a theocracy, yes
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Really? I take it your not religious? Secularism is basically about freedom. Code for freedom from GOD's laws. What do you think will happen when GOD's laws are no longer respected? Chaos.

I dont see any chaos in a theocratic structure like an Amish or Mennonite society. Only peace and prosperity.
 
Carlos Spicy Weiner said:
The Jews even underwent a period of reform, where they attempted to do away with texts which signified their being a conquered people. As such, all scriptures originally written in Greek rather than Aramaic/Hebrew were thrown out. Next, all scriptures written in Aramaic/Hebrew, but outside of Judea or Israel were thrown out. Too bad, because this movement has caused debate within Christianity about which scriptures should be included in the Old Testament, and which should be excluded.

The problems with the Romans controlling the Church hierchary continued on into Medieval Europe, where the Investature debate did far more damage to the faith than anything the Romans had ever concerned themselves with.
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Of course. the Jews just like the Catholics remove/destroy/hide anything that does not support their beliefs. Its how they keep the masses brainwashed. That is why the Jews are told not to accept the words of Jesus. Jesus exposes the corruption of SOME of their leaders.

The Roman Hierarchy is more concerned with itself(RCC Canons and Dogmas) then it is with the actual Gospel Words. Some accurate, some not so accurate.
 
bravo said:
Well, sweetie....men don't produce trees like we used to....and the violin maker is long dead and won't be making any instruments ....

The ones made today are probably better in quality and indistinguishable in tone to the real thing.....but like a Picasso....it just can't be called the real thing....

It reminds me of the tools that claim that the old vintage tube guitar amps sounded so much better that todays solid state....
very subjective conclusion and I think total bullshit....if you didn't know which one you were hearing, you'd never know which was which....
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Nope, nothing made today is superior to a Strat, princess, nothing matches it in tone. It is why they try to duplicate it, it wasn't only the wood, but the varnish.

I have heard a Strat and you can tell, if you have an "ear"
 
wiseones2cents said:
Really? I take it your not religious? Secularism is basically about freedom. Code for freedom from GOD's laws. What do you think will happen when GOD's laws are no longer respected? Chaos.

I dont see any chaos in a theocratic structure like an Amish or Mennonite society. Only peace and prosperity.
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Bulloney! There is no freedom in the societies you mentioned, no art, no music, no Individual expression, only conformity. If you wish to live in a society such as that, but I couldn't. They also oyster size you if you do not conform.

Peaceful societies existed before "God's Law" whatever that is, if you mean the Ten Coomandments, they left out some pretty important laws, like thou shalt not own another human being or thou shalt not abuse a child, or thou shalt not abuse your spouse, etc.

Secularism is responsible for giving rights to women and children. It was atheist and agnostic women who fought for these rights while the religious women didn't wish to rock the boat, so to speak.
 
wiseones2cents said:
Of course. the Jews just like the Catholics remove/destroy/hide anything that does not support their beliefs. Its how they keep the masses brainwashed. That is why the Jews are told not to accept the words of Jesus. Jesus exposes the corruption of SOME of their leaders.

The Roman Hierarchy is more concerned with itself(RCC Canons and Dogmas) then it is with the actual Gospel Words. Some accurate, some not so accurate.
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Of course, the texts I referenced are all included in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant bibles. It has to do with an argument Luther made, declaring that since the Jewish people of the past had authority over the Old Testament, then the books they threw out should also be excluded from the Christian Bible. Whatever...
 
Johnny Rocketfingers said:
Rome embraced Christianity and 75 years later is sacked. Germany embraces a publically Chistian Hitler and then collapses.

France abandons state sponsored Christianity and gets republican government.

Want me to go on?
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Then France screws up royally, and the 1st Republic collapses and gives way to an Emperor... :cof1:
 
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