California shouldn't cast stones at AZ...

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Dixie - In Memoriam

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Police rely on injunctions to curb gang activity

By THOMAS WATKINS (AP) – 3 days ago

LOS ANGELES — College student Christian Rodriguez was heading home from his girlfriend's house when two police officers threw him face-down on the ground, clapped him in handcuffs and arrested him.

His offense? Being out past 10 p.m.

Police said the 20-year-old is a gang member and subject to a sweeping court injunction covering the housing project where he lives. The injunction lets police enforce a nighttime curfew and arrest people for hanging out in public and wearing gang colors.
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So... In Los Angeles, an adult American citizen, walking down the street minding his own business, can be thrown to the ground, handcuffed and arrested for the "crime" of being on the street after 10pm... but California is pissed at Arizona for questioning potential illegal aliens AFTER being stopped for suspicion of committing a legitimate crime? One of these is wrong because is IS racial profiling, the other isn't... can you guess which one involves profiling? It's not the Arizona law, that law stipulates in four different places, that officers can't profile individuals. But what do you call it when police can apprehend and arrest people because they are wearing certain colors, or "look like" they might belong to a gang?
 
Dixie said:
Police rely on injunctions to curb gang activity

By THOMAS WATKINS (AP) – 3 days ago

LOS ANGELES — College student Christian Rodriguez was heading home from his girlfriend's house when two police officers threw him face-down on the ground, clapped him in handcuffs and arrested him.

His offense? Being out past 10 p.m.

Police said the 20-year-old is a gang member and subject to a sweeping court injunction covering the housing project where he lives. The injunction lets police enforce a nighttime curfew and arrest people for hanging out in public and wearing gang colors.
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So... In Los Angeles, an adult American citizen, walking down the street minding his own business, can be thrown to the ground, handcuffed and arrested for the "crime" of being on the street after 10pm... but California is pissed at Arizona for questioning potential illegal aliens AFTER being stopped for suspicion of committing a legitimate crime? One of these is wrong because is IS racial profiling, the other isn't... can you guess which one involves profiling? It's not the Arizona law, that law stipulates in four different places, that officers can't profile individuals. But what do you call it when police can apprehend and arrest people because they are wearing certain colors, or "look like" they might belong to a gang?
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Hey, don't you think that we better get Stringbeans authoritative determination whether the arrest was unconstitutional because the police would have no way of determining if Rodriguez had illegally come out of a building after 10pm or if he simply had legally come out of the building before 10pm and overstayed his welcome. You know, like whether the illegal alien illegally entered the U.S. or legally entered and overstayed his visa.
 
imnoliber said:
Hey, don't you think that we better get Stringbeans authoritative determination whether the arrest was unconstitutional because the police would have no way of determining if Rodriguez had illegally come out of a building after 10pm or if he simply had legally come out of the building before 10pm and overstayed his welcome. You know, like whether the illegal alien illegally entered the U.S. or legally entered and overstayed his visa.
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Regardless of Stringhead's determination, the point is, these yahoos in California who are now boycotting Arizona and teaching the school kids that the AZ law is equivalent to Jim Crow, have had a much more egregious law on the books for the past decade. I mean, tell me what is the difference? The CA law gives LEOs the authority to make arrests based on how people are dressed, and for being in public after a certain time! In Arizona, a crime has to first be committed or the LEO has to have reasonable suspicion of a crime, to even ASK for identification of someone they might suspect is an illegal alien. The California law doesn't apply to people in the country illegally, it applies to adult citizens of the United States! It specifically authorizes profiling bases on how someone is dressed, the Arizona law specifically forbids racial profiling in four different places.

And California has been doing this for 10 years!
 
Dixie said:
Regardless of Stringhead's determination, the point is, these yahoos in California who are now boycotting Arizona and teaching the school kids that the AZ law is equivalent to Jim Crow, have had a much more egregious law on the books for the past decade. I mean, tell me what is the difference? The CA law gives LEOs the authority to make arrests based on how people are dressed, and for being in public after a certain time! In Arizona, a crime has to first be committed or the LEO has to have reasonable suspicion of a crime, to even ASK for identification of someone they might suspect is an illegal alien. The California law doesn't apply to people in the country illegally, it applies to adult citizens of the United States! It specifically authorizes profiling bases on how someone is dressed, the Arizona law specifically forbids racial profiling in four different places.

And California has been doing this for 10 years!
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They're doing it to a particular housing project in a particular neighborhood, not to the state as a whole.

"In Los Angeles alone, 43 injunctions covering 71 gangs and about 5,500 alleged gang members are in place. The tactic is also employed in several states beyond California, including Texas and Florida. In the nearly 10 years since the injunction at the Mar Vista Gardens housing project became permanent, overall gang crime at the west Los Angeles complex has been cut in half, police figures show. Individuals convicted of violating terms of an injunction can face up to six months in jail, as well as a $1,000 fine.

"It has been a silver bullet for us," said Lt. Nicholas Sinibaldi, who oversees area gang operations. "It's been a big part of why gang crime has dropped."

What's your solution for curbing gang activity?
 
christiefan915 said:
They're doing it to a particular housing project in a particular neighborhood, not to the state as a whole.

"In Los Angeles alone, 43 injunctions covering 71 gangs and about 5,500 alleged gang members are in place. The tactic is also employed in several states beyond California, including Texas and Florida. In the nearly 10 years since the injunction at the Mar Vista Gardens housing project became permanent, overall gang crime at the west Los Angeles complex has been cut in half, police figures show. Individuals convicted of violating terms of an injunction can face up to six months in jail, as well as a $1,000 fine.

"It has been a silver bullet for us," said Lt. Nicholas Sinibaldi, who oversees area gang operations. "It's been a big part of why gang crime has dropped."

What's your solution for curbing gang activity?
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What's your solution for curbing illegal immigration??
 
christiefan915 said:
They're doing it to a particular housing project in a particular neighborhood, not to the state as a whole.

"In Los Angeles alone, 43 injunctions covering 71 gangs and about 5,500 alleged gang members are in place. The tactic is also employed in several states beyond California, including Texas and Florida. In the nearly 10 years since the injunction at the Mar Vista Gardens housing project became permanent, overall gang crime at the west Los Angeles complex has been cut in half, police figures show. Individuals convicted of violating terms of an injunction can face up to six months in jail, as well as a $1,000 fine.

"It has been a silver bullet for us," said Lt. Nicholas Sinibaldi, who oversees area gang operations. "It's been a big part of why gang crime has dropped."

What's your solution for curbing gang activity?
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They do it in San Francisco and Oakland to. Now I happen to think it's a good idea in trying to control gang activity. But if you are one who argues for civil liberties and minority rights how do you justify this?
 
cawacko said:
They do it in San Francisco and Oakland to. Now I happen to think it's a good idea in trying to control gang activity. But if you are one who argues for civil liberties and minority rights how do you justify this?
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I don't justify it. I don't necessarily see it as a minority issue, though. It looks like cops jumping the gun on this student because of the housing project's curfew.

We had an almost identical situation here a few months ago: http://kdka.com/local/Jordan.Miles.claims.2.1441621.html

It's not the first time for us and it won't be the last. The police union is notorious for getting bad cops off the hook for their actions. The city was under federal oversight for years because of brutality issues.

My issue is the claim that this injunction is the same as the Arizona law, and that's clearly not true. There's no indication that the Mar Vista project is populated 100% by minorities and that anyone is being targeted for that reason. The injunction was to help control gang activity and keep the place safe for the majority of the residents. I think Rodriguez has a case against the cops who arrested him and if he pursues it, I hope he prevails. The bigger question is how to balance everybody's rights when a living situation becomes dangerous because of gang violence. And that's why I asked Dixie what his solution would be to curb it.
 
christiefan915 said:
I don't justify it. I don't necessarily see it as a minority issue, though. It looks like cops jumping the gun on this student because of the housing project's curfew.

We had an almost identical situation here a few months ago: http://kdka.com/local/Jordan.Miles.claims.2.1441621.html

It's not the first time for us and it won't be the last. The police union is notorious for getting bad cops off the hook for their actions. The city was under federal oversight for years because of brutality issues.

My issue is the claim that this injunction is the same as the Arizona law, and that's clearly not true. There's no indication that the Mar Vista project is populated 100% by minorities and that anyone is being targeted for that reason. The injunction was to help control gang activity and keep the place safe for the majority of the residents. I think Rodriguez has a case against the cops who arrested him and if he pursues it, I hope he prevails. The bigger question is how to balance everybody's rights when a living situation becomes dangerous because of gang violence. And that's why I asked Dixie what his solution would be to curb it.
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The reality is most gangs are made up of minorities. I know there are white prison Arayan gangs and I've seen some white Hells Angels gangs on the History Channel (scary people) but most gangs tend to be non-white.

The ACLU and other minority rights groups and civil libertarians have tried to fight these laws here in the Bay Area. I'm in agreement with the laws because I don't believe most residents of a neighborhood should have to basically make their home a live-in prison due to the fear of going outside because of a few thugs. However I'll call myself out for hypocrisy because it is against my libertarian live and let live beliefs.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
what would that case be.....arresting him for violating a court ordered curfew?.....doesn't it sound like the case will be against him?.......
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"The injunction lets police enforce a nighttime curfew..." Allows, not demands.

They can make a judgment call the same way cops do when they pull over speeders. Some get tickets while some just get warnings.
 
christiefan915 said:
They're doing it to a particular housing project in a particular neighborhood, not to the state as a whole.

"In Los Angeles alone, 43 injunctions covering 71 gangs and about 5,500 alleged gang members are in place. The tactic is also employed in several states beyond California, including Texas and Florida. In the nearly 10 years since the injunction at the Mar Vista Gardens housing project became permanent, overall gang crime at the west Los Angeles complex has been cut in half, police figures show. Individuals convicted of violating terms of an injunction can face up to six months in jail, as well as a $1,000 fine.

"It has been a silver bullet for us," said Lt. Nicholas Sinibaldi, who oversees area gang operations. "It's been a big part of why gang crime has dropped."

What's your solution for curbing gang activity?
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Oh okay, so it's apparently okay for police to profile and discriminate based on how people look in a particular housing project and not statewide? Is that what your argument is? Or is your argument, their rights can be violated if the police feel it helps to curb gang violence in a certain neighborhood? Just still trying to get a handle on how this decade-old injunction in California is different from the new AZ law, as far as civil rights are concerned.
 
Just still trying to get a handle on how this decade-old injunction in California is different from the new AZ law, as far as civil rights are concerned.
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Because it seems like... and maybe it's just me... but in Arizona, a law enforcement officer must have reasonable suspicion a crime has first been committed, before they can ask for identification or pursue any questioning regarding legal residency, but in California, no crime has to be suspected, you just have to be in public after a certain time and wearing gang colors. Seems to me, if the Arizona law violates someones civil rights, the California law certainly would. Seems like, if the Arizona law might potentially lead to racial profiling, the California specifically authorizes and condones profiling, and even establishes the profile criteria. But for 10-years, it's apparently been okay, and you seem to be defending it here. The rationale you are using is the level of gang violence and the need for desperate measures, but we currently have a crisis with the number of illegal aliens crossing our borders, and committing crimes in border towns, so is the need for desperate measures somehow different when applied to non-citizens as opposed to citizens who might be gang members?

I would like some answers and clarifications here. Anyone game?
 
cawacko said:
The reality is most gangs are made up of minorities. I know there are white prison Arayan gangs and I've seen some white Hells Angels gangs on the History Channel (scary people) but most gangs tend to be non-white.

The ACLU and other minority rights groups and civil libertarians have tried to fight these laws here in the Bay Area. I'm in agreement with the laws because I don't believe most residents of a neighborhood should have to basically make their home a live-in prison due to the fear of going outside because of a few thugs. However I'll call myself out for hypocrisy because it is against my libertarian live and let live beliefs.
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If you call yourself out for hypocrisy, you're being too hard on yourself. Surely even the Libertarian party doesn't think offenders and law-abiding citizens deserve equal treatment.
 
christiefan915 said:
If you call yourself out for hypocrisy, you're being too hard on yourself. Surely even the Libertarian party doesn't think offenders and law-abiding citizens deserve equal treatment.
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Can't the argument be made that kids not being allowed to associate with their neighbors is completely wrong? (Again, based on these kids actions I agree with the ruling that they should be kept apart but it just seems if you really really support civil liberties you would not be for this)
 
It does seem rather like the "thought police"...

I mean, arresting some dude for being out in the wrong neighborhood when the moon is up?
 
Damocles said:
It does seem rather like the "thought police"...

I mean, arresting some dude for being out in the wrong neighborhood when the moon is up?
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Interesting subject on the radio today, regarding LA.

It was about a law that has been on the LA, or maybe even the CA, Law books, for several years now.

Seems that this law almost mirrors what AZ's 1070 says and yet, this hasn't caused a stir in LA or CA.

The Radio host named the bills; but I was driving and had no way to jot them down.

I just found this OH-SO interesting.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Interesting subject on the radio today, regarding LA.

It was about a law that has been on the LA, or maybe even the CA, Law books, for several years now.

Seems that this law almost mirrors what AZ's 1070 says and yet, this hasn't caused a stir in LA or CA.

The Radio host named the bills; but I was driving and had no way to jot them down.

I just found this OH-SO interesting.
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It's the same emotionalist hypocrisy which has literally come to define the liberal Democrat party. Nothing is about principle or rationality anymore, it's all knee-jerk feelings and emotion. If something (anything) can be distorted and put in the perspective of a minority being a victim, that is how it's played, and it doesn't matter what common sense or rational justifications are made, the entire perception and premise is based on the emotional bleats that it's "unfair" to some group, and it's the fault of racist republicans!

I don't doubt that CA does have a law on the books similar to AZ, it doesn't surprise me one bit. But here, I give an example of another law in California which is, in my opinion, much more intrusive on civil rights of known citizens who haven't violated any law. It's just utterly amazing these people have the audacity to call for boycotts on AZ! It's all because liberals have learned how to whip people into a frenzy by playing the race card, outright lying and distorting facts, and making the "right wing" the boogie-man!
 
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